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re: WWII history buffs - Pacific theater island hopping
Posted on 12/12/15 at 9:45 pm to EmperorGout
Posted on 12/12/15 at 9:45 pm to EmperorGout
I'll assume your figure of ten fighter escort missions originating from Iwo Jima is accurate. But I don't think its intellectually honest to just divide the USMC and USN causulties on Iwo Jima by ten in an attempt to prove the invasion was unjustified or unnecessary.
There were other factors involved...
The primary long range escort fighter, the P-51, had a rudimentary navigation system which proved unsuitable for long over water missions, and, unlike the B-29, did not have a pressurized cabin. Pilot fatigue/discomfort was a major issue. Someone should have recognized this shortcoming beforehand, but they either didn't, or ignored the obvious.
Probably more relevant, was the change in bombing strategy. The B-29 was designed as a high altitude daylight bomber. Curtis LeMay, being the innovator and demented bastard he was, started using his bombers in low level (5,000') night time firebombing raids. I believe he incinerated about 250,000 Japanese in Tokyo one night in late March. At that point, Iwo Jima had probably been secured for about a week, maybe two.
Also, with flying time cut in half from the bases in the Marianas (Tinian, Saipan), it seems logical that maintenance issues would decrease and unit operational readiness would be increased.
There were other factors involved...
The primary long range escort fighter, the P-51, had a rudimentary navigation system which proved unsuitable for long over water missions, and, unlike the B-29, did not have a pressurized cabin. Pilot fatigue/discomfort was a major issue. Someone should have recognized this shortcoming beforehand, but they either didn't, or ignored the obvious.
Probably more relevant, was the change in bombing strategy. The B-29 was designed as a high altitude daylight bomber. Curtis LeMay, being the innovator and demented bastard he was, started using his bombers in low level (5,000') night time firebombing raids. I believe he incinerated about 250,000 Japanese in Tokyo one night in late March. At that point, Iwo Jima had probably been secured for about a week, maybe two.
Also, with flying time cut in half from the bases in the Marianas (Tinian, Saipan), it seems logical that maintenance issues would decrease and unit operational readiness would be increased.
1
Posted on 12/12/15 at 9:50 pm to White Roach
The radar station on Iwo Jima also gave the Japanese ~1.5-2 hours early warning of incoming raids. With it out of action, the bombers were undetected until they neared the coast.
It is still an arguable point whether Iwo was necessary, but it is not cut and dried that it wasn't.
It is still an arguable point whether Iwo was necessary, but it is not cut and dried that it wasn't.
Posted on 12/12/15 at 9:53 pm to Jim Rockford
Good point about the radar.
Posted on 12/12/15 at 9:54 pm to weadjust
quote:
I worked with a guy that fought in the Pacific. He said the Japs were some fierce fighters with no quit in them.
The average Japanese soldier in WW2 is probably the best pound for pound soldier that has been fielded in the history of warfare.
Posted on 12/12/15 at 10:46 pm to Scoop
quote:For the most part, they were brainwashed psychopaths who were had no respect for life. The atrocities committed by them are notorious.
The average Japanese soldier in WW2 is probably the best pound for pound soldier that has been fielded in the history of warfare.
Posted on 12/12/15 at 11:01 pm to Scoop
The Bushido code. Those guys were completely indoctrinated and didn't want to bring any shame upon their families.
At one point during the Korean War, my father's squadron was flying out of an airbase in Japan. There were Japanese sentries providing security along the flight line and tarmac. My dad said that when they'd go out to do their pre-flight aircraft inspection, the sentries were (technically) required to check the crews IDs. It was typically predawn hours and cold, so being a nice guy (or trying to expedite the process) my dad said he'd bring hot coffee to the sentries.
He said after one or two cups of coffee, any American would stop checking his ID. The Japanese sentries never did. He said he even went as far as fricking with them - "I'm the tall round eye who brings you coffee every time I fly!" - but they still always checked his ID.
He said the only plausible explanation that he could offer was that "either they're well trained and diligent military men, or maybe we all just look alike to them."
At one point during the Korean War, my father's squadron was flying out of an airbase in Japan. There were Japanese sentries providing security along the flight line and tarmac. My dad said that when they'd go out to do their pre-flight aircraft inspection, the sentries were (technically) required to check the crews IDs. It was typically predawn hours and cold, so being a nice guy (or trying to expedite the process) my dad said he'd bring hot coffee to the sentries.
He said after one or two cups of coffee, any American would stop checking his ID. The Japanese sentries never did. He said he even went as far as fricking with them - "I'm the tall round eye who brings you coffee every time I fly!" - but they still always checked his ID.
He said the only plausible explanation that he could offer was that "either they're well trained and diligent military men, or maybe we all just look alike to them."
Posted on 12/12/15 at 11:05 pm to bhtigerfan
quote:
The average Japanese soldier in WW2 is probably the best pound for pound soldier that has been fielded in the history of warfare.
For the most part, they were brainwashed psychopaths who were had no respect for life. The atrocities committed by them are notorious.
--------------------------------------------------------------
They truly believed they were superior and held theirselves to a higher "standard". A large part of their logic in mistreating POWs was that surrendering was shameful and cowardly.
The average Japanese soldier in WW2 is probably the best pound for pound soldier that has been fielded in the history of warfare.
For the most part, they were brainwashed psychopaths who were had no respect for life. The atrocities committed by them are notorious.
--------------------------------------------------------------
They truly believed they were superior and held theirselves to a higher "standard". A large part of their logic in mistreating POWs was that surrendering was shameful and cowardly.
Posted on 12/12/15 at 11:44 pm to bhtigerfan
I am well aware of what the Japanese did, especially in China. My point was that the average soldier that Japan fielded in WW2 is pretty much unmatched.
Posted on 12/13/15 at 9:34 am to Scoop
I would take the Waffen SS over the Jap soldiers.
Posted on 12/13/15 at 9:45 am to weadjust
quote:Ditto on mine, 11th Airborne from the Pacific.
There was no doubt in mind he cold turn stone cold killer if he was threatened with bodily injury. Nicest guy you would ever meet but not one you would want to frick with.
He was a bad dude on watch, he was not there to frick around.
Posted on 12/13/15 at 3:34 pm to prplhze2000
quote:
I would take the Waffen SS over the Jap soldiers.
Maybe, but if you factor in Japan's naval and air power plus the way they used their land based troops used their local surroundings / geography, you'd be hard-pressed to argue otherwise.
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