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re: WWII buffs: let's talk about Germany's biggest strategic blunder

Posted on 8/20/14 at 5:46 pm to
Posted by Champagne
Sabine Free State.
Member since Oct 2007
53696 posts
Posted on 8/20/14 at 5:46 pm to
Europe Engulfed is more popular, I think.

Definitely worth playing.
Posted by theGarnetWay
Washington, D.C.
Member since Mar 2010
27186 posts
Posted on 8/20/14 at 5:54 pm to
quote:

There's historical evidence to allow a conclusion that Hitler's peace overtures to Britain and France were sincere. Of course, he wanted to focus his war-making effort on the Soviet Union.


I've always understood that Hitler, and many Germans in general, felt embarrassed about how WW1 had finished and how Britain and France laid the sole blame and burden of the war on Germany. Being the egomaniac that he was I have to believe that France and Britain would've inevitably been targeted (if he had succeeded in Russia)

With that said I think someone made the point that Churchill realized this from the beginning.
Posted by Champagne
Sabine Free State.
Member since Oct 2007
53696 posts
Posted on 8/20/14 at 6:04 pm to
Good points.

Why did Britain and France refuse Hitler's offers of peace? They surely did not trust Hitler's Germany to make peace for all time. They probably suspected that Hitler would attack the West right after he conquered the Soviet Union.

Posted by Spaceman Spiff
Savannah
Member since Sep 2012
20021 posts
Posted on 8/20/14 at 6:08 pm to
I think you answered your own question. I think the German buildup also caught them by surprise and by the time they realized it, the writing was already on the wall.
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
17109 posts
Posted on 8/20/14 at 6:10 pm to
quote:

WWII buffs: let's talk about Germany's biggest strategic blunder
One word: Sitzkrieg. Phony war.

Britain & France, while technically in a state of war with Nazi Germany (primarily due to their pact obligations to Poland) sat on their hands between September, 1939 and March, 1940.


No, they were in a state of war, not just technically. And the British are the ones who put themselves in the position of being tied to war with a German/Polish conflict, which actually INCREASED the obstinacy and unwillingness of the Poles to pursue diplomacy to resolve issues with Germany. The British likewise knew they had no actual means of defending Poland, this simply allowed them to engage in a "justified" war against Germany for their own power interests.

And the British had designs on Norway as well, the Germans simply preempted them because they, too, could read maps. The war was not stagnant and the British and French weren't simply going to wait it out and then make peace with Germany. They had offers from Germany and refused them. To insinuate that it was Germany's successful operations in Norway and then west in Europe that inflamed the war and dismantled any opportunity at a peaceful resolution is patently absurd.
Posted by TutHillTiger
Mississippi Alabama
Member since Sep 2010
49830 posts
Posted on 8/20/14 at 6:29 pm to
The two front war was bad. They should have tried to convince Japan to not attacks us in 1942 and wait another year or two. Once we were involved and they were fighting a two front war, with a well supplied enemy on both fronts and it was basically over.

Most of Germany's high ranking military knew this at the time. They were hoping that we would focus on Japan (who they didn't trust anyway) and they would be able to sign a peace agreement with us later. Our degree of industrialization and rapid expansion into the European conflict caught them off guard.

The final solution was really a stupid military blunder as well as it tied up a lot of troops and resources. It was an SS operation not a military one but still a huge blunder.

When the German military command realized our level of involvement etc they tried to kill Hitler and make a peace thready numerous times.

Pure military was probably not listening to Rommel and putting tank divisions withing striking distance of the D-day beaches and instead putting tanks back in reserve which allowed us to get a beach head and seal their doom. We had air superiority and may still have gotten the beach heads eventually but it would have been much bloodier)




Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
17109 posts
Posted on 8/20/14 at 6:33 pm to
quote:

I've always understood that Hitler, and many Germans in general, felt embarrassed about how WW1 had finished and how Britain and France laid the sole blame and burden of the war on Germany.


They weren't simply embarrassed, they were resentful. And it wasn't simply the war guilt clause, the Treaty of Versailles was extremely harsh and resulted in an impoverished, humiliated, and powerless Germany that was completely subservient to France and Britain. It led to domestic political chaos and the legitimate rise of Marxism as a political force in Germany. The French moved in and occupied the Ruhr in 1923 in a domineering fashion in order to seize German materials when Germany fell behind on its war reparations. The Weimar governments were awarded virtually zero concessions to by the British and French states even 10 years after the war, which resulted in an opening for more extreme factions like the NSDAP and the Communists to gain wider support from the German people.

quote:

Being the egomaniac that he was I have to believe that France and Britain would've inevitably been targeted (if he had succeeded in Russia)


You're basing that simply on the perception of Hitler as an egomaniac. That in itself should indicate that you have very poor reason to believe that. Most WWII historians will concede that Hitler's sentiments toward Britain were sincere. He even offered to permanently concede Alsace-Lorraine to the French as he had South Tyrol to the Italians to ensure border security between France and Germany for generations. There are numerous references to indicate that Hitler's desire for peace and permanent borders with his Western neighbors were sincere. He sought alliances with both France and Britain. If you understand Hitler's worldview you would understand that he viewed France and Britain as racial kin to the Germans and as upright nations. Even in Mein Kampf Hitler mentions this and that Lebensraum for Germany cannot be found in the West.

In 1935 Hitler signed a naval pact with Great Britain that ensured Germany's navy would not reach a size greater than 1/3 that of the British navy as an indication that Britain's power of the seas and the key to her security would not be threatened by Germany. A lesson learned from the Kaiser's ambition to build the High Seas Fleet to challenge British hegemony of the seas. Hitler sought to convey to the British that German interests did not lay in challenging Britain by openly conceding sea power to Britain, which also afforded Britain military leverage over Germany since Britain could control the passages in and out of the North Sea.

Again, WWII had much less sensational origins than most seem to believe. It wasn't some unique in history occasion of a madman trying to take over the world. That is pop history and not reality.

If you study British foreign policy theories and doctrines at the time, and what they had been for quite some time at that point, you will better understand that their clutching to their hegemonic British Empire status and fear of what a united and strong Germany could mean to the power structure in Europe and the world, was very much an integral piece to the war's calamitous tumble into inevitability.
Posted by Champagne
Sabine Free State.
Member since Oct 2007
53696 posts
Posted on 8/21/14 at 10:02 am to
What's your opinion of to what extent Germany could have used the years of 1930s to further beef-up their industrial capacity for war?

Germany certainly blundered by being slow to mobilize for total war after Britain and France declared war. Hitler miscalculated his situation. He thought that he could negotiate peace with Britain, and, he had no idea that the Soviet Union was so strong.

Germany's only chance, IMHO, was to be ready for all-out total war, even if only a limited war to destroy Bolshevism and conquer Russia was intended.

As good as Germans are at being productive, however, I'm not sure to what extent Germany could have built the kind of economic powerhouse needed to mechanize more of their divisions and combat support assets.

A good example from history: As early as July, 1941 in Army Group Center's sector, logistical problems were at times severe enough to cause operational halts while Russian soldiers in the thousands were escaping encirclement in some places and reinforcing defense lines in others.

The problem was caused by the fact that the fuel and supply-carrying railroads and trucks were not robust enough to take the fuel and supplies to the front. This is at a time when the general history of the war tells us that the panzer divisions were invincible.

As an aside note, Great Britain was always an "equal opportunity hater" of all continental powers who became a threat to dominate the European continent. That's why Britain waged unrelenting warfare against Napoleonic France and Hitlerian Germany.

This post was edited on 8/21/14 at 10:14 am
Posted by ninthward
Boston, MA
Member since May 2007
22046 posts
Posted on 8/21/14 at 10:27 am to
it did not work that way for them , they gave Spain weapons and then they said no thanks to Hitlers war. Spain was not a power in ww2 and would have been destroyed, the fact is, Hitler split the war to three fronts and it stretched his ability to produce war materials and logistics, that is why. Not Spain.
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
17109 posts
Posted on 8/21/14 at 12:49 pm to
quote:

What's your opinion of to what extent Germany could have used the years of 1930s to further beef-up their industrial capacity for war?


I think they did what they could. Hitler came to power in 1933. At that time Germany's army was restricted to 100,000 men, they were forbidden from possessing U-boats and large battleships, and forbidden from having an air force and tanks. Germany built it's modern military from scratch starting in 1933, and for the first few years, in secrecy.

Also, it would be erroneous to suggest that they were preparing for a world war in the 1930's. They knew the limitations of their resources at their then current state. Again, the naval agreement with Britain illustrated this. A world war was something they desperately wanted to avoid but knew was a risk given their immediate geopolitical goals. The German generals were concerned about the difficulties of a war with Czechoslovakia in 1938, and Hitler himself in 1936 was well aware that the Germans were militarily inferior to the French and was said to have been under tremendous stress as a result of this when he ordered the reoccupation of the Rhineland.

One also has to understand that Hitler's foremost agenda in the first several years in power was domestic. Solidifying the regime's power, eradicating Marxism, resolving the massive unemployment epidemic, etc. Military industrialization was not at the top of the list.

Open rearmament didn't begin until 1935, if memory serves. The Germans also lacked substantial vital natural resources. Thus, they really had no capability to better industrialize for such a large scale war at that time. German successes in the initial war period become all the more extraordinary when all these things are taken into consideration.
This post was edited on 8/21/14 at 1:54 pm
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
17109 posts
Posted on 8/21/14 at 1:00 pm to
quote:

Germany certainly blundered by being slow to mobilize for total war after Britain and France declared war. Hitler miscalculated his situation. He thought that he could negotiate peace with Britain, and, he had no idea that the Soviet Union was so strong.


Agreed. This was really inexcusable and I think further highlights their lack of anticipation of such a large scale conflict. But it also is indicative if the NSDAP's concerns about hardships on the civilian population during the war. Hitler's mindset was heavily influenced by WWI and he viewed the political agitation and morale collapse on the home front to have been major factors in Germany's defeat. This resulted in a reluctance to moving Germany's entire economy to a war footing and, given the capacity of Germany's enemies' industrial prowess and shear manpower, this put them at an even more critical disadvantage at a time when Germany was desperate to capitalize on their very narrow window for victory.
Posted by TigerPanzer
Orlando
Member since Sep 2006
9476 posts
Posted on 8/21/14 at 1:03 pm to
quote:

After the French surrendered, Hitler made some half-hearted overtures toward Britain for peace. These were the ones rebuffed by Churchill.

Instead of using "rebuffed" could we say "refused"? You're making it sound as if the English spitefully and wrongly snubbed a generous peace overture by … ADOLF HITLER, a man whose credibility as a promise keeper was, at that point, about as strong as a wet tissue paper. Churchill--and he was hardly alone--knew that Britain had no good option but to continue the war and hope (wait) for America's entry into the conflict. The alternative was to ceed Europe to Germany, from the coast of France to the steppes of Asia.
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
17109 posts
Posted on 8/21/14 at 1:05 pm to
quote:

As an aside note, Great Britain was always an "equal opportunity hater" of all continental powers who became a threat to dominate the European continent. That's why Britain waged unrelenting warfare against Napoleonic France and Hitlerian Germany.


Right. And WWI. They fought to preserve the hegemony of the British Empire and the result was that they hastened its destruction. WWII destroyed the British Empire and inadvertently elevated the Soviet Union to a superpower and the masters of Eastern Europe.
Posted by Champagne
Sabine Free State.
Member since Oct 2007
53696 posts
Posted on 8/21/14 at 2:11 pm to
quote:

This was really inexcusable


Indeed.

Posted by Spaceman Spiff
Savannah
Member since Sep 2012
20021 posts
Posted on 8/21/14 at 2:21 pm to
quote:

Instead of using "rebuffed" could we say "refused"? You're making it sound as if the English spitefully and wrongly snubbed a generous peace overture by … ADOLF HITLER, a man whose credibility as a promise keeper was, at that point, about as strong as a wet tissue paper. Churchill--and he was hardly alone--knew that Britain had no good option but to continue the war and hope (wait) for America's entry into the conflict. The alternative was to ceed Europe to Germany, from the coast of France to the steppes of Asia.


This...
Posted by Captain Rumbeard
Member since Jan 2014
6401 posts
Posted on 8/21/14 at 2:23 pm to
You're forgetting about Gibralter.
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
17109 posts
Posted on 8/21/14 at 3:20 pm to
quote:

Instead of using "rebuffed" could we say "refused"? You're making it sound as if the English spitefully and wrongly snubbed a generous peace overture by … ADOLF HITLER,


Rebuffed or refused are equally applicable. Rebuffed does not imply that the decision was either or good or bad.

quote:

an whose credibility as a promise keeper was, at that point, about as strong as a wet tissue paper.


Not necessarily. Hitler made it very clear that it was his intention to break free from the conditions of the Versailles Treaty and to bring ethnic Germans and the lands stripped from Germany back into the Reich. The British even signed a naval treaty with Germany which Hitler abided by until the outbreak of the war. He signed a border treaty with Italy. He broke the Munich Pact over a crisis with the Poles and one that many British diplomats and politicians agreed Germany had legitimate and reasonable claims on, specifically Danzig.

Britain as well had an inconsistent track record of following through on promises, such as the one they made to Germany about fellow nations following suit and disarming to levels compatible with those imposed on Germany. Or promising Italy territorial gains for joining WWI. Or telling the Arabs they'd be granted self-governance after helping the British fight the Turks.

Hitler's credibility at the time was not the impediment to a peace settlement. There are a number of ways to ensure and safeguard the credibility of international agreements. Britain categorically rejected any consideration of German peace offers and stuck to their original demands of Germany to withdraw entirely from Poland or the war would continue. And then then the same after the fall of France. And then they offered only utter capitulation as a precursor to peace after Casablanca. That's not a serious desire for reasonable peace, which is understandable since the British were the ones who declared war with Germany in the first place.

Many historians consider Hitler's peace proposals quite sincere. Whether Hitler was sincere or not was not the fundamental issue of the time, it was the geopolitical considerations.
This post was edited on 8/21/14 at 5:36 pm
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
17109 posts
Posted on 8/21/14 at 4:07 pm to
quote:

The alternative was to ceed Europe to Germany, from the coast of France to the steppes of Asia


This is invalid reasoning. How was this the alternative when the Germans made offers prior to the invasion of France? Also, this was prior to any German advance into the Soviet Union. And it's a tad ironic that the supposed impetus for the war was the salvation of a non-democratic Polish regime which was ultimately invaded by the Soviet Union two weeks later and then turned over to them after the war. Now you claim that peace couldn't be had because Germany might then attack the Soviet Union and advance toward Eurasia? Why were the British so concerned with the territorial security of a state like the Soviet Union? Or is that not indicative of Britain being motivated by power politics and the fear of a strong Germany asserting itself on the continent? Particularly after the Soviet Union invaded all the Baltic nations, Finland, and Poland and openly supported an international effort to overthrow the Western systems of government to complete the global worker's revolution? None of this was seen as threatening or egregious enough to go to war with the USSR, but Germany's territorial disputes with Poland were?

And it also is invalid to unequivocally suppose that Germany would incorporate France into the Reich after their defeat. After the Franco-Prussian War, France was not incorporated into the Reich. The Germans did claim Alsace-Lorraine. That was the only territorial dispute of significance, which Hitler was willing to concede permanently to France prior to the war in exchange for peace assurances. Even after France's defeat, the peace treaty allowed an unoccupied southern France, which was only occupied after French collapses in North Africa.

The return of territorial sovereignty to France could have been a necessary precondition of peace for Britain, and it likely would have been accepted minus Alsace-Lorraine, but the British never offered anything in response to Germany's proposals.
Posted by crash1211
Houma
Member since May 2008
3635 posts
Posted on 8/21/14 at 4:18 pm to
quote:

Cancellation of Operation Sea Lion


They were never going to be able to do it anyway. Not near enough transports. Even if they had neutralized the RAF, and Royal Navy
Posted by TigerTreyjpg
Monroe, LA
Member since Jun 2008
5815 posts
Posted on 8/21/14 at 4:34 pm to
I will admit that:

1. I've not read the whole thread,
2. Judging from the post, you're likely more learned on matters pertaining to World War II.

That said, I find it hard to believe that the failure to woo Spain into the Second World War had had much of an effect.

In much the same way as the North fought the War of Northern Aggression with one hand tied behind it's back, and as long as a President (like Lincoln) was committed to keeping the union of the States together, the South had no chance in defeating the North. The reason, in its simplest terms, is resources.

In much the same way, a combination of the might of Germany, Japan, and Italy (and in view of your argument, throw Spain in as well) was never going to whip the industrialized world, absent the discovery of the atomic bomb by one of them prior to one of us - as long as "said industrialized war" was dead set on that Axis combo doing just that - whipping the rest of the world.

Had Hitler not invaded Russia, the coast of southern France would have likely had 3-4 times the defense and resources it possessed in the summer of 44. The war would have lasted much longer (again, the atomic bomb was for sure a game changer, and would have been no matter who got it first).

While not putting more pressure on Franco's Spain to assist the Axis powers may have been a mistake, all things being equal (again, ESPECIALLY considering our discovery of the atomic bomb), it changes nothing.

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