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re: Why is Judas vilified?

Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:00 pm to
Posted by tuptiger
Member since Jan 2008
4314 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:00 pm to
Then why did he create Satan?
Posted by beantown
Nashville
Member since Sep 2015
3429 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:02 pm to
He didn't create Satan. Lucifer the Angel chose to challenge God's ideals and fell from grace, becoming Satan.
Posted by tuptiger
Member since Jan 2008
4314 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:03 pm to
He created Angels though
Posted by beantown
Nashville
Member since Sep 2015
3429 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:03 pm to
He did.
Posted by tuptiger
Member since Jan 2008
4314 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:05 pm to
So, he created an angel who he would continually rage war against. This is like the US arming the Chinese with nuclear weapons before going to war for centuries.
Posted by beantown
Nashville
Member since Sep 2015
3429 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:06 pm to
Well a father can love their child endlessly, but it's the child's choice whether or not to love back.
Posted by tuptiger
Member since Jan 2008
4314 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:08 pm to
But if that father can see time in a different manner, and he knows how the child will ultimately turn out, do you think that father would think twice about conceiving the child?

Ie Hitler's parents

Only Hitler's parents didn't know he would proceed to eradicate Jews.
This post was edited on 3/26/16 at 11:10 pm
Posted by Bullfrog
Running Through the Wet Grass
Member since Jul 2010
61798 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:08 pm to
Well then, why does Err'body hate on the devil when he just serves as the punisher of the wicked?
Posted by biglego
San Francisco
Member since Nov 2007
85534 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:11 pm to
Maybe he shouldn't be vilified. People have wondered what exactly his role was--could Jesus have been that hard to find? I've heard the theory that Judas likely did more than locate Jesus. That he gave testimony that Jesus was calling himself Messiah. Which is what Jesus was killed for.

There is also an interesting theory I've heard. It goes like this: Judas was a zealot (Jew who advocated armed resistance to any authority in Israel) and his name Iscariot doesn't mean "from the city" as is normally translated, but instead is an indication he was a Sicarii. Note the similarity in the words. Sicarii were noted for assassinating with daggers. Recall Simon the Zealot is an apostle, so it's not outlandish.

So the theory is, Judas wanted Jesus arrested by the Temple authorities Bc he thought that would galvanize and spark the uprising he desired against Rome. When Caiphas instead turned Jesus over to Rome, Judas was the one betrayed. Judas hanged himself, but he did it right in front of Caiphas' family tomb--essentially desecrating the tomb. And Caiphas' family tomb has been located and it fits the description of where Judas hanged himself.

Posted by Mr. Hangover
New Orleans
Member since Sep 2003
34932 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:12 pm to
W
T
F
Posted by biglego
San Francisco
Member since Nov 2007
85534 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:13 pm to
quote:

We know what happened, Judas didn't know what his betrayal would lead to. He outed Jesus to the religious leaders who could not put someone to death as that was a Roman action

Exactly. Although the temple leaders were in cahoots with Rome, which was. A sore fact for many. It's why the Sicarii targeted temple leaders for assassination
Posted by BRgetthenet
Member since Oct 2011
118270 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:14 pm to
Posted by beantown
Nashville
Member since Sep 2015
3429 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:17 pm to
We've just circled back to the first point of free will.

He can see all events that happen, but he cannot control their choices because of free will. He is just the observer. Those decisions have been already made at the one moment in time everything else in the universe happened.
Posted by Breesus
Unplug
Member since Jan 2010
69549 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:19 pm to
It's not predestination.

God exists outside of time and space. The moment the universe began to the moment it ended is seen not as a chronological time lapse but all at once constantly by God. He's a divine being. Jesus was as well.

It's not that Judas was predetermined or preselected to betray Jesus it's that Jesus could see the entirety of the past and the future.

Judas made his own decisions. Just as we all make ours.

But we cannot comprehend the ability to stand outside time and see it as a cyclical event and not a linear movement.

A fair comparison is if you tried to explain depth to a being that existed in a 2d world. You might be able to explain the concept so that he understands the basic principles behind it, but because all he has ever known and his entire world exists in 2d, he won't be able to comprehend to actual meaning of depth.
Posted by biglego
San Francisco
Member since Nov 2007
85534 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:19 pm to
Did you even read it? I said it's a theory. I didn't invent it.
Posted by tuptiger
Member since Jan 2008
4314 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:22 pm to
Why did God harden the heart of Pharoah then? Seems like free will has limits. Nebechunezzer ate grass because God gave him a mental illness.
Posted by biglego
San Francisco
Member since Nov 2007
85534 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:25 pm to
quote:

Why did God harden the heart of Pharoah then?

Bc God was being mean. There's really not another explanation that makes sense. God is generally not that nice of a guy in the OT. Took a lot of revision to fashion Yahweh into a loving and forgiving father.
Posted by beantown
Nashville
Member since Sep 2015
3429 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:35 pm to
Nebechunezzer was the steed of the chosen one.

I'm done with you.
Posted by athenslife101
Member since Feb 2013
20645 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:36 pm to
quote:

Pharoah's hardening of the heart


This really bothers me.

As does the complete forgiveness to Moses for killing a man.
Posted by tuptiger
Member since Jan 2008
4314 posts
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:39 pm to
Haha
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