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Started By
Message
re: True or false: Violent, public, televised executions for convicted murderers
Posted on 9/27/23 at 12:39 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
Posted on 9/27/23 at 12:39 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
The death penalty is a 100 percent deterrent
Deterrence is the dissuading of people to commit crimes rather than removing the ability of a particular person from committing more crimes.
The term that you are wanting is "incapacitation" - another of the stated goals of criminal punishment.
0
Posted on 9/27/23 at 12:43 pm to WDE24
quote:
How many wrongfully convicted innocents executed are acceptable when we start executing many more people? How many public executions of innocents will society accept? What unintended consequences might we imagine?
The flawed legal system full of politicians, lawyers, police and jurors who are subject to both corruption and mistakes at a significant rate makes this untenable for me.
All of this. We are still having people released from prison due to Brady Rule violations because the prosecution held back evidence that would have resulted in a not-guilty/hung jury verdict.
As much as I want to be for this, there is no way I could support this knowing that we still get things wrong due to parties going all out to get a conviction by all means necessary.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 12:45 pm to Old Sarge
Agree. And chop the hands off of thieves.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 12:48 pm to Old Sarge
False. Murderers don’t value human life or fear consequences. Further, eye-witness testimony is vastly unreliable due to bias and police practices. DNA is much stronger, but also susceptible to dirty cop interference.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 12:51 pm to Squedunk
quote:
Oh no....we need to keep the same system we have because its working so well.
Current system is failing because the people committing the crimes have no true threat of consequences. Even when actual police work is done and violent offenders are caught, they all believe they will be back out on the street in a short period of time. DAs are refusing to bring numerous cases to trial and being completely silent to the reason. In NOLA, you have the DA just simply missing deadlines and having cases thrown out.
You want to start talking deterrence. Try actually putting the cases in front of a jury (and hope the jury doesn't have an agenda) and start locking some of these violent offenders away. And if the current system cannot get that done, start voting out the elected officials that hold positions responsible for the criminal justice system.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 12:51 pm to bopper50
quote:
Drastic times require drastic measures.
What drastic times? The 70s when crime was twice as bad as now?
Posted on 9/27/23 at 12:54 pm to facher08
quote:Sure.
Care to comment on the 8th amendment?
Public hangings and firing squads go back before the founding of this nation and are still valid solutions.
We just went weak in the knees for a while.
But consider that the biblically mentioned method was stoning - which involved the men of the community participating so that they all witnessed this process and became very sensitized to the consequences of the sin and the awful weight of punishment. This was a complicated but interesting situation which brings up a question about the effects on our society from being so distant from this process. Should we be so isolated from this process? Is this healthy for our society?
Also, people seem to be wrapped around the deterrent concept when simple punishment and incapacitation are also major goals of the criminal punishment process. Criminal actions have consequences and these should be apparent to all of us.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 1:36 pm to Rabby
quote:
Public hangings and firing squads go back before the founding of this nation and are still valid solutions.
...and haven't been used approaching 100 years. Bringing back a public display could certainly be argued as "unusual"
quote:.
But consider that the biblically mentioned method was stoning - which involved the men of the community participating so that they all witnessed this process and became very sensitized to the consequences of the sin and the awful weight of punishment.
There is zero data to support this, and by all accounts from much more recent time periods, lawlessness and violent crime worthy of the proposed punishment far exceeded the level it is today.
quote:
Also, people seem to be wrapped around the deterrent concept when simple punishment and incapacitation are also major goals of the criminal punishment process.
Deterrence was the whole point of the OP (I hope). Otherwise, what's the point other than to satisfy sadistic urges?
Posted on 9/27/23 at 1:41 pm to Old Sarge
If you're going to televise it, go ahead and turn the murderer loose in a big maze. 5 minutes later, release a pack of pissed off Presa Canarios.
If they murderer can make it out of the maze before the dogs find him, pardon.
Would make for great betting pools.
If they murderer can make it out of the maze before the dogs find him, pardon.
Would make for great betting pools.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 1:41 pm to Old Sarge
Public hanging would work for capital cases that are truly beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 2:42 pm to facher08
quote:1996 to 2023 is only 27 years.
...and haven't been used approaching 100 years. Bringing back a public display could certainly be argued as "unusual"
Several states have kept or more recently adopted the option of firing squad and/or hanging as methods of execution.
quote:I guess that you are in need of a Bible?
There is zero data to support this
quote:Punishment is not sadistic - it is a necessary part of human governance. Always has been. Also, it should be noted that preventing that offender from committing more violence is termed incapacitation.
Otherwise, what's the point other than to satisfy sadistic urges?
Posted on 9/27/23 at 2:43 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
It’s no different than disaster preparation. If you nip the problem in the bud, some a-hole somewhere will convince the unwashed masses that all the money spent preparing was wasted, because look, nothing bad happened. Even if you can show statistics on reduced crime, the same a-hole will put some crying anecdote in front of everyone to contradict you. There’s no money in the cure; the money’s in the medicine, so to speak.
You are 100% correct...and in the case of crime prevention you get rid of the warm fuzzies for the crowd who likes to imagine others suffering. Prevention robs them twice...there is no victim and there is no one to blame and punish. Can't have too much of that....
Posted on 9/27/23 at 2:54 pm to AlwysATgr
quote:
In what warped worldview are you operating in to equate their murders with executing murderers in a civilized society?
They were only murdered in the United States. In Pakistan and in Syria they were convicted of aiding and abetting terrorists by a quasi-governmental agency comprised of citizens of both nations and summarily executed for their crimes. That neither were guilty of anything is as immaterial in their cases as it would have been in any one of the nearly 200 cases in the United States where people wrongfully convicted of capital offenses were exonerated and released from prison. The fact is that they were publicly killed...murdered or executed depending on the perspective...and very few people and NO well adjusted and emotionally stable person would care to see anything like either of those videos again. To execute criminals or accused criminals or to murder accused terrorists in public in the United States would stop the death penalty in a very short period of time because no one has the stomache for and rightfully so. Only a very small number of truly sick and twisted individuals want to see it.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 2:59 pm to Auburn1968
quote:
Public hanging would work for capital cases that are truly beyond a shadow of a doubt.
The problem is that the bar is a reasonable doubt. There is no way to quantify what that means. There have been people who were guilty beyond a reasonable doubt convicted and sentenced to die in the United States. Nealrly 200 out of about 8700 since 1976. Thats 2.3% roughly...convicted beyond a reasonable doubt, the bar used to end lives and strip citizens of their freedom, who were later exonerated by the same system which convicted them. There is no such thing as an absolute surety in criminal justice. The rare instance that would prove the rule is so rare as to be statistically insignificant. Those rare cases can be just as easily punished by life in prison with no chance of parole as we can kill nearly 200 innocent people because we thought there was no reasonable doubt as to their innocence only to find there was more than reasonable doubt...
Posted on 9/27/23 at 3:06 pm to Weekend Warrior79
quote:
Current system is failing because the people committing the crimes have no true threat of consequences. Even when actual police work is done and violent offenders are caught, they all believe they will be back out on the street in a short period of time. DAs are refusing to bring numerous cases to trial and being completely silent to the reason. In NOLA, you have the DA just simply missing deadlines and having cases thrown out.
You want to start talking deterrence. Try actually putting the cases in front of a jury (and hope the jury doesn't have an agenda) and start locking some of these violent offenders away. And if the current system cannot get that done, start voting out the elected officials that hold positions responsible for the criminal justice system.
The United States has the second highest total number of citizens incarcerated in the world. The 6th most per capita. Pretending like locking more people up is a good idea is a fools errand. There is an underlying reason that we have such a huge prison population and it ain't diversity. A big part of it is it is a fricking massive industry. Lots of money being made in incarcerating people. Pretending that prison is not punishment and not deterrent is equally foolish...criminals do not weigh the risks, they break the law and hope they do not get caught. No one contemplating killing a rival drug lord is going ahead and doing it because they do not fear going to jail....they do it because theyre a fricking criminal and incapable of thinking logically and unemotionally, which is required for prison to be a deterrent.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 3:07 pm to Rabby
quote:
1996 to 2023 is only 27 years.
Several states have kept or more recently adopted the option of firing squad and/or hanging as methods of execution.
quote:
...and haven't been used approaching 100 years. Bringing back a public display could certainly be argued as "unusual"
It isn't the method that would have 8th ammendment implications, making it a spectacle would. There hasn't been a sanctioned public execution in this country since 1936.
quote:
I guess that you are in need of a Bible?
Are you trying to tell me that biblical anecdotes empirically show that public stoning resulted in a less violent time as a opposed to present day? I really hope not.
quote:
Punishment is not sadistic
Putting it on display as an event, is, evidenced by the fantasies people post on here constantly about what they'd like to see done to people guilty of serious offenses.
quote:
preventing that offender from committing more violence is termed incapacitation.
Again, not the point of the OP.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 3:08 pm to Irregardless
quote:
False. Murderers don’t value human life or fear consequences. Further, eye-witness testimony is vastly unreliable due to bias and police practices. DNA is much stronger, but also susceptible to dirty cop interference.
Eye witness accounts are almost as unreliable as jail house snitches...because well meaning witnesses want to please the police and be part of the solution. Only later do they realize, if ever, that their desire to help may have actually helped convict the wrong person.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 3:13 pm to Weekend Warrior79
quote:
All of this. We are still having people released from prison due to Brady Rule violations because the prosecution held back evidence that would have resulted in a not-guilty/hung jury verdict.
As much as I want to be for this, there is no way I could support this knowing that we still get things wrong due to parties going all out to get a conviction by all means necessary.
The state is nearly incapable of securing a conviction without jail house snitches, tampering/planting or hiding evidence or relying on unreliable eye witness accounts. I think most people in prison are guilty but I also think most of them were probably wrongfully convicted. How on earth could you sleep at night knowing that over 2% of those sentenced to die in the US since 1976 were innocent and still advocate for the same justice system to execute and even step up the number of executions. It is not a matter of progressive politics it is a matter of protecting the citizens from the abuse of the fricking state...why it is not a cornerstone of GOP and Conservative politics is a mystery. Actually it is not if you understand the words conservative politics in context in the United States...it ain't even a curiosity.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 3:40 pm to Old Sarge
Rome fed people to beasts.
Burned them, fought them, crucified them.
Rome Never ran out of criminals.
Burned them, fought them, crucified them.
Rome Never ran out of criminals.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 3:40 pm to Old Sarge
Let’s do it
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