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re: Today marks 161 years since Robert E. Lee's surrender to Ulysses S. Grant at Appomattox...
Posted on 4/10/26 at 8:10 am to KiwiHead
Posted on 4/10/26 at 8:10 am to KiwiHead
Lee's battlefield record also isn't as strong as many of his apologists would want you to think:
1. Cheat Mountain: Defeat
2. Oak Grove: Stalemate
3. Beaver Dam Creek: Defeat
4. Gaines's Mill: Victory
5. Savage's Station: Stalemate
6. Glendale: Stalemate
7. Malvern Hill: Defeat
8. Second Manassas: Victory
9. South Mountain: Defeat
10. Antietam: Stalemate
11. Fredericksburg: Victory
12. Chancellorsville: Victory
13. Gettysburg: Defeat
14. Wilderness: Stalemate
15. Spotsylvania Court House: Stalemate
16. North Anna River: Stalemate
17. Totopotomoy Creek: Stalemate
18. Cold Harbor: Victory
19. Siege of Petersburg: Defeat
20. Appomattox Court House: Defeat
His overall win-loss-tie record was as follows:
5-7-8
1. Cheat Mountain: Defeat
2. Oak Grove: Stalemate
3. Beaver Dam Creek: Defeat
4. Gaines's Mill: Victory
5. Savage's Station: Stalemate
6. Glendale: Stalemate
7. Malvern Hill: Defeat
8. Second Manassas: Victory
9. South Mountain: Defeat
10. Antietam: Stalemate
11. Fredericksburg: Victory
12. Chancellorsville: Victory
13. Gettysburg: Defeat
14. Wilderness: Stalemate
15. Spotsylvania Court House: Stalemate
16. North Anna River: Stalemate
17. Totopotomoy Creek: Stalemate
18. Cold Harbor: Victory
19. Siege of Petersburg: Defeat
20. Appomattox Court House: Defeat
His overall win-loss-tie record was as follows:
5-7-8
Posted on 4/10/26 at 8:22 am to RollTide1987
People overrate Lee because they confuse winning early fights with being a top tier genius. He looked good partly because he had weaker, disorganized opponents at times, not because he was untouchable.
Hall of Fame status? No. He was competent, but a lot of his reputation is just mythology and uneven conditions getting mistaken for brilliance.
Hall of Fame status? No. He was competent, but a lot of his reputation is just mythology and uneven conditions getting mistaken for brilliance.
Posted on 4/10/26 at 8:52 am to Galloglaich
Yep. And as a result, people underrate Grant - whose battlefield record was much better than Robert E. Lee's. He also inflicted FAR more casualties than he took as cited below:
Western campaigns and Battles of Ulysses S. Grant
Total Union casualties under Grant: 36,688
Total Confederate casualties: 84,187
Eastern campaigns and Battles of Ulysses S. Grant
Total Union casualties under Grant: 116,954
Total Confederate casualties: 106,573
Totals Western and Eastern campaigns and Battles of Ulysses S. Grant
Total Union casualties under Grant: 153,642
Total Confederate casualties: 190,760
Net casualties difference: +37,118
Western campaigns and Battles of Ulysses S. Grant
Total Union casualties under Grant: 36,688
Total Confederate casualties: 84,187
Eastern campaigns and Battles of Ulysses S. Grant
Total Union casualties under Grant: 116,954
Total Confederate casualties: 106,573
Totals Western and Eastern campaigns and Battles of Ulysses S. Grant
Total Union casualties under Grant: 153,642
Total Confederate casualties: 190,760
Net casualties difference: +37,118
Posted on 4/10/26 at 9:06 am to cfish140
quote:There were several issues at play there.
His decision to charge at Gettysburg against all his generals advice was head scratching though, and arguably lost the south the war.
1) It's probable Lee had an MI in the period leading up to Gettysburg. During the battle he suffered from bouts of angina, extreme fatigue, and severe diarrhea, and was not himself,
2) Against explicit orders, JEB Stuart lost touch with the main force as he went on a foraging/supply run. His late arrival gave Lee extremely limited field assessment, poor intel and basically lost the battle). Had Stuart been on hand initially, Lee would have had forces on Little Round Top Day 1, the Union positions on Cemetery Ridge would have been untenable, and the affair would have ended quickly. Lee's official written comment was "The Army was much embarrassed by the absence of the cavalry."
3) The frontal assault (Pickett's charge was not doomed by strategy. The preceding artillery assault on the Union center, the largest in history to that point, should have been devastating, but the gunpowder used was more potent than what the artillery had been accustomed, and the Confederate cannons overshot union lines. Union commanders recognized what was happening, and ordered their largely unscathed center to cease return fire as if they'd been torn up by the barrage.
4) The South had a chance to win the war in 1861 after the First Battle of Bull Run had they pursued retreating Union forces into Washington DC. After that, the war was virtually unwinnable. Even by the Second Battle of Bull Run, Wash DC was impregnable. Perhaps one could argue that Union losses in the North at Gettysburg or elsewhere would have led to McClellan's election over Lincoln in 1864. But even with a Gettysburg win, devastating CSA defeats later in the campaign were inevitable in 1863. The North simply had too many resources.
Posted on 4/10/26 at 9:17 am to Junky
quote:
And a bunch of lunatics on Reddit think Lee should have been hung like the rest of the generals. Idiots not knowing how “done” everyone was with the war, not taking into consideration generals on both sides were old friends. Just vapid people who can’t see past their nose.
He should have.
Posted on 4/10/26 at 9:19 am to SoFla Tideroller
quote:
Today, you have an entire political party that hates America and is financed by the globalists who aim at her destruction.
Which one?
Posted on 4/10/26 at 9:26 am to RollTide1987
Grant was a victim of revisionist history. Prior to the turn of the 20th century, Grant was considered the benchmark of generals not just here , but abroad as well. Southern historians had gotten a lot of good press and it was helped along by a pretty savvy PR campaign by the Daughters of the Confederacy , to name one of a few.
But consider. In US history, he still is the only general to have 3 whole armies surrender to him. His overall win record. And if you take and place Cold Harbor as only part of a campaign, the Overland Campaign, you are talking about an undefeated record. Something that neither Napoleon or Alexander the Great could say and they were objectively impressive. I put Grant, first among American generals and Patton second and really, it's not even close among the two, and George Patton was damned impressive.
Grant took out Ft Donelson
Won at Shiloh
Won at Vicksburg which included taking out an army at Jackson
Went to Chattanooga and KICKED an army off a mountain ( that alone is impressive)
Goes East
Pretty much wins the Overland campaign because Lee cannot stop him or force him to withdraw.
Wins at Petersburg
He turns Lee into the pursued and does not allow him any rest.
But consider. In US history, he still is the only general to have 3 whole armies surrender to him. His overall win record. And if you take and place Cold Harbor as only part of a campaign, the Overland Campaign, you are talking about an undefeated record. Something that neither Napoleon or Alexander the Great could say and they were objectively impressive. I put Grant, first among American generals and Patton second and really, it's not even close among the two, and George Patton was damned impressive.
Grant took out Ft Donelson
Won at Shiloh
Won at Vicksburg which included taking out an army at Jackson
Went to Chattanooga and KICKED an army off a mountain ( that alone is impressive)
Goes East
Pretty much wins the Overland campaign because Lee cannot stop him or force him to withdraw.
Wins at Petersburg
He turns Lee into the pursued and does not allow him any rest.
Posted on 4/10/26 at 9:35 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
During the battle he suffered from bouts of angina, extreme fatigue, and severe diarrhea, and was not himself,
He was experiencing similar symptoms during the Chancellorsville campaign two months prior. He likely suffered a heart attack in March 1863.
quote:
Against explicit orders, JEB Stuart lost touch with the main force as he went on a foraging/supply run.
This isn't entirely accurate. There was plenty of blame to go around for Stuart's absence. Lee's orders were vague and gave Stuart discretion to do exactly what he ended up doing.
quote:
The frontal assault Pickett's charge was not doomed by strategy. The preceding artillery assault on the Union center, the largest in history to that point, should have been devastating, but the gunpowder used was more potent than what the artillery had been accustomed, and the Confederate cannons overshot union lines.
I would say it was doomed by both tactics and logistics. When Lee dreamed up the assault on the Union center he knew Pickett was fresh but had no idea just how badly beat up the supporting units were from the first day of fighting. He figured there would be roughly 15,000 men involved in the assault but attrition brought that number down closer to 12,500. He also vastly underestimated the strength of the Union position and failed to recognize that his target was obvious to his opposite number. Meade correctly anticipated that Cemetery Ridge would be the subject of the next Confederate attack and had reserves at the ready to support Hancock's men.
Also...what reserves were on standby to exploit any breach to the Union position? You had Cadmus Wilcox and his brigade attacking from the Peach Orchard area but other than that, there were no sizable units ready to go to carry on the assault once Pickett broke through. It was a poorly conceived plan dreamed up by a general who severely underestimated his foe.
This post was edited on 4/10/26 at 9:43 am
Posted on 4/10/26 at 1:00 pm to RollTide1987
Another win for the good guys; frick those racist traitors!

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