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Posted on 10/20/15 at 2:08 pm to OleWarSkuleAlum
Why do we always assume their more advanced than our civilization?
Posted on 10/20/15 at 2:15 pm to slutiger5
quote:
Why do we always assume their more advanced than our civilization?
That's why.
Posted on 10/20/15 at 2:35 pm to OleWarSkuleAlum
What's with the alien threads lately? 
I've always said that the way we view possible alien things is flawed because we base everything we think on Earth-based laws and principles. So I agree with that part of the OP.
What I don't agree with is this:
Especially the bolded part. How in the blue frick is that "the most logical conclusion of them all"?
Every single thing related to "aliens" that we know of is completely made up. Everything. No, I'm not saying that there aren't some fairly compelling hypotheses that exist as to what could be "out there." But they are all complete speculation at this point, yet people straight up believe them (and in some cases, quote them as "facts").
People like this guy:
I've always said that the way we view possible alien things is flawed because we base everything we think on Earth-based laws and principles. So I agree with that part of the OP.
What I don't agree with is this:
quote:
Zoltán Galántai alluded to this when he said there may be multi-universal ETI, but we could not detect them because their workings would be indistinguishable from nature. This may be the most logical conclusion of them all. There is an advanced ETI that is so powerful that we cannot distinguish their existence from nature and any and all organic life is some sort of experiment possibly because the AI running the “simulation” is so far removed from such simple life forms they are trying to understand their own beginnings.
Especially the bolded part. How in the blue frick is that "the most logical conclusion of them all"?
Every single thing related to "aliens" that we know of is completely made up. Everything. No, I'm not saying that there aren't some fairly compelling hypotheses that exist as to what could be "out there." But they are all complete speculation at this point, yet people straight up believe them (and in some cases, quote them as "facts").
People like this guy:
quote:
Master of Sinanju
quote:
Not only that, but people see their craft all the time. Many report contact with them on a regular basis.
I don't think any reasonable person can deny that they are here, living among us, and probably in control of the planet's governments.
Posted on 10/20/15 at 3:45 pm to Redbone
quote:quote:quote:
All the science you had in your post deals with science-described natural world that we have an entire framework o understanding built on. And when you think about it that way then your analogies break down really really fast.
(And therein lies your problem. You believe our entire understanding is complete. That's what they thought back around 1900 when it was believed all had been discovered and invented. We now know it is constantly changing.)
There's a difference between seeing something as incomplete and seeing something as not understood.
We had all the evidence to know that the continents moved over time, but didn't have the mechanism for a good time after that. Once we realized that plates moved due to drag forces from mantle convection, we could complete the understanding of Plate Tectonics.
That what and why was complete...just not the how.
quote:quote:quote:
Would a Roman warrior in a chariot have ever believed that one day there would be tanks ... with the technology that ours have this very day?
A Roman warrior would most assuredly know what a siege weapon is because they used them. A tank is a spruced up siege weapon. It's not like something entirely new was invented.
(So you are saying that he would see a steel vehicle on tracks moving along at 60 mph and just say ho hum, just another seige weapon. Nothing to see here. Move along, move along.)
I am saying that if you add on some armor and change the ammo from this carrobalista (far left)
You have a tank. If you can explain what a tank is to a Roman soldier in a single sentence, like I just did. It's because he has the basic knowledge of a moving siege weapon. A foundation that you just have to add bells and whistles on to make a tank. He doesn't know the what, but he knows the why and how.
quote:quote:
"Science" is constantly changing. Much has already changed since my days at the old Dutchtown High School.
List the changes that have occurred since high school and I will tell you how science hasn't changed.
quote:
(You are kidding, right? Lightening goes cloud to cloud, cloud to ground, ground to cloud vs just cloud to ground. Ice age vs global warming. Discovered neutrinos. Etc.
I put science in parenthesis to indicate the changes in learning about what constitutes "science". Nothing in our environment and perhaps the universe has changed but what constitutes "science" for us changes with every discovery. That would be my point. We are still making discoveries some of which results in changes to what is taught in "science". All has not been discovered yet. We don't know what we don't know.
Therefore it is too early to declare there are no more types.
Hell, they are still waffling on whether there is/was life on Mars. )
We do apply things to what we already know. And when I mean what we already know, I mean natural laws. Like ones that don't change. Gravity. Thermodynamics. That being said, these natural laws do not break down unless you are in a star, and even there not really either.
All this to say, there are only a set number of combinations to make atoms and elements. There's only certain types of energy. It's not that we haven't more, it's that there can't be more. It's written in nature's laws.
Your argument about new elements or new energies has a good analog. There are atoms out there that are only theorized to exist but we know they do. Just as there are super small atomic parts and "energies" that we know are out there and will eventually be able to detect them. We know they're out there because of the natural laws, and that's it.
The only reason I've now responded to you twice is because, like the OP, I don't think you understand what governs matter in the universe. Given that all the ingredients are set, then you know the possible products that can be made. There aren't new elements. Planets that are rocky are going to behave like rocks do on Earth.
It's all part of a system composed of all the same parts. Don't try and divide out a very interconnected system.
This post was edited on 10/20/15 at 5:03 pm
Posted on 10/20/15 at 4:01 pm to OleWarSkuleAlum
Posted on 10/20/15 at 4:05 pm to Pectus
quote:
There aren't new elements. Planets that are rocky are going to behave like rocks do on Earth.
Not trying to be a dick, but we have no fricking clue what exists on the other sides of the universe. None. For all we know, there are elements (or what we refer to as such) that we've never heard of nor can we comprehend.
To think that we've created/found every element in existence throughout the universe is pretty fricking arrogant IMO. But it's shite like this that always makes arguments start to fall apart for me.
Posted on 10/20/15 at 4:16 pm to CocomoLSU
what id Jayden Smith is an alien brahhsss.
He might be a reptile dude
Ever thing about that?
He might be a reptile dude
Ever thing about that?
Posted on 10/20/15 at 5:02 pm to CocomoLSU
I never said that we've found all the elements. I said we know the rules for what makes elements and can theorize what ones are out there...even though we haven't found them.
Posted on 10/20/15 at 6:17 pm to Pectus
Well the exchange has been interesting but getting confusing as to who wrote what.
What started this for me was actually simple. You wrote
This is a point that can not be proven nor disproven. The only thing that I point out is that higher profile persons than you (I'll assume) and I (most definitely) has made such statements in the past. They were proven wrong. Due to near constant discoveries I am open to new possibilities including new energy and new elements being discovered. I will never say that there aren't any more types.
I haven't read all the replies in the thread. Perhaps gravitational waves has already been covered. If Not this is a good time to do so.
LIGO link
It's my understanding that although these "waves" hasn't been proven but your tax dollars at work is trying to prove this AND harness these "waves" for power.
What started this for me was actually simple. You wrote
quote:
All these theories about new energy and new elements are too hand wavy. There arent any more types.
This is a point that can not be proven nor disproven. The only thing that I point out is that higher profile persons than you (I'll assume) and I (most definitely) has made such statements in the past. They were proven wrong. Due to near constant discoveries I am open to new possibilities including new energy and new elements being discovered. I will never say that there aren't any more types.
I haven't read all the replies in the thread. Perhaps gravitational waves has already been covered. If Not this is a good time to do so.
LIGO link
It's my understanding that although these "waves" hasn't been proven but your tax dollars at work is trying to prove this AND harness these "waves" for power.
Posted on 10/20/15 at 6:19 pm to Pectus
quote:
I never said that we've found all the elements. I said we know the rules for what makes elements and can theorize what ones are out there...even though we haven't found them.
Not trying to be a dick either but:
quote:
All these theories about new energy and new elements are too hand wavy. There arent any more types.
I'm a bit confused.
This post was edited on 10/20/15 at 6:22 pm
Posted on 10/20/15 at 6:20 pm to OleWarSkuleAlum
(no message)
This post was edited on 1/11/21 at 12:05 am
Posted on 10/20/15 at 7:06 pm to Redbone
quote:
Not trying to be a dick either but:
I might be crazy, but I don't think you're comprehending what I'm getting at...
Posted on 10/20/15 at 7:10 pm to OleWarSkuleAlum
And whose to say there is not life as we don't know it under extreme conditions that we deem incapable of supporting life. That is very egocentric on our part. They may be thinking the same things about earth. "No way can that planet suatain life"
Posted on 10/20/15 at 7:18 pm to RDOtiger
quote:
However, the thought that aliens derive from another dimension is very interesting - maybe God, angles, demons, ghost, and UFOs are all one-and-the-same from a different dimension? After all, some physicist believe there are up to 15 different dimensions...
You really should leave angles out of this discussion. As to your faith, if you really have faith, you shouldn't have to look to science to back it up.
Posted on 10/20/15 at 7:25 pm to LSUTANGERINE
quote:
And whose to say there is not life as we don't know it under extreme conditions that we deem incapable of supporting life. That is very egocentric on our part. They may be thinking the same things about earth. "No way can that planet suatain life"
We know about certain extremophilic animals like halophiles and thermophiles. But you are very much right. The good thing is we have those examples to help us find these types of life easier.
But the OP isn't looking at this type of life, but at AI...which is a good point.
Posted on 10/20/15 at 7:29 pm to OleWarSkuleAlum
quote:
As a society we are looking at Extraterrestrial Intelligence (ETI) all wrong. For example, the most common sentiment is that ETI will come in the form of organic material. I don’t think that is valid whatsoever. Just look at our own Type 0 civilization. We are already developing some of the most advanced AI we could possibly imagine, with an AI recently becoming the first to show self-awareness. Wouldn’t it logically conclude that if as a Type 0 civilization we are developing extremely advanced forms of AI at such a basic stage, that a Type I or definitely a Type II would be completely dominated by AI?
Yeah, this is a possibility, but one I think scientists are absolutely looking for. Really I don't think we could tell if the extraterrestrial we perceive from a distance is biological or mechanical, but it's clear it's a greater intelligence.
quote:
We are obsessed with harnessing energy, because our entire existence depends on it. What is to say that advanced forms of ETI probably a Type III or greater would even be reliant on energy sources that we know to exist today? Zoltán Galántai alluded to this when he said there may be multi-universal ETI, but we could not detect them because their workings would be indistinguishable from nature. This may be the most logical conclusion of them all. There is an advanced ETI that is so powerful that we cannot distinguish their existence from nature and any and all organic life is some sort of experiment possibly because the AI running the “simulation” is so far removed from such simple life forms they are trying to understand their own beginnings.
Type IV and beyond is kind of a moot point on looking for. If they don't want to be found, then they won't be. They can choose to reveal themselves to us. Of course, Type IV is completely theoretically in the possibility of how far one can not only stretch one's consciousness, but also whether other dimensions actually exist.
Posted on 10/20/15 at 7:32 pm to zelman
quote:
There is a word for this: God.
Issac Newton gave up researching a few of his theories crediting God that would later be proven false: The God of the Gaps
Posted on 10/20/15 at 7:41 pm to Teddy Ruxpin
quote:
That's why the question, "Where is everybody?" Holds weight.
It doesn't. Our planet is a blip on the radar. Our radio waves sent throughout history is a pixel on the scale of the Milky Way. There are trillions upon trillions of planets. It's like us being interested in a single ant hill, and even if we were, could the ants comprehend them and their technology? Why would we go to an ant hill and give it technology, when we as humans just see them as a warlike species. No reason to bother them.
Posted on 10/20/15 at 7:42 pm to sullivanct19a
quote:
Of all the things going on in the world today, this is the least important topic.
bullshite. Our place in the universe is the most important topic. But keep eating your Doritos and thinking about the gays and Donald Trump as being what's important.
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