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The Curious Case of Plane No. 8 of the Doolittle Raid

Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:38 am
Posted by blueridgeTiger
Granbury, TX
Member since Jun 2004
21721 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:38 am

The Whirling Dervish was one of the sixteen B-25 Mitchell Bombers that took off from the USS Hornet on April 18, 1942, to take the war to the Japanese homeland. Fifteen of the planes completed their missions and either crashed or were ditched in China. After taking off in the eighth position from the Hornet, the Whirling Dervish missed its target in Tokyo but bombed a target of opportunity well north of the Japanese capital city. Then, it proceeded to the Soviet Union and landed safely at a Soviet airfield near Vladivostok. The Soviets confiscated the B-25 and interned the five-member crew for over a year before they were allowed to “escape” into Iran.

I have just completed Vanishing Act by Dan Hampton. He researched the circumstances of the diversion of the Whirling Dervish. The official US Government explanation is that once the crew realized they missed their target, they knew they lacked sufficient fuel to make it all the way to China, so they headed to the much closer Soviet Union expecting to be allowed to refuel and resume their trip to China. Any “unofficial” reason for traveling to the Soviet Union would have been known only to Edward York and Robert Emmens, pilot and copilot of the Whirling Dervish, Jimmy Doolittle, and General Hap Arnold. None of these four individuals has ever deviated from the official explanation and all are now deceased. There is no written record explaining this mission.

Hampton has seized upon some interesting facts about the Whirling Dervish and its crew, then extrapolated and speculated. First, the Whirling Dervish was not among the sixteen planes and crews originally selected for the mission. They were brought in as training at Eglin AFB was nearing completion as a substitute for a damaged plane. (There were other planes and crews who had gone through the training regiment as alternates, but the Whirling Dervish was brought from the outside.) Second, fifteen of the planes had modified carburetors which extended the range. The Whirling Dervish was the only plane of the sixteen that did not have modified carburetors. Third, the Whirling Dervish was the only plane of the sixteen that carried maps of the eastern Soviet Union.

Hampton concluded (speculated) that Hap Arnold had probably ordered the Whirling Dervish to travel to the Soviet Union to determine whether the Soviets might allow US bombers to utilize Soviet territory to attack Japan. The Soviets were neutral with respect to the US/Japanese War (although the Red Army had bested the Imperial Japanese Army in several skirmishes). The detention of the Whirling Dervish crew and confiscation of the plane pretty much put that possibility to rest.


Posted by Czechessential
Member since Apr 2024
1437 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:43 am to
quote:

The detention of the Whirling Dervish crew and confiscation of the plane pretty much put that possibility to rest.


it took time to reverse engineer that B-25, baw
Posted by cypresstiger
The South
Member since Aug 2008
12459 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:48 am to
Very interesting. How does the author know that 1 plane did not have a modified carburetor ?
Posted by blueridgeTiger
Granbury, TX
Member since Jun 2004
21721 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:56 am to
quote:

How does the author know that 1 plane did not have a modified carburetor ?


Maintenance records.
Posted by Kcrad
Diamondhead
Member since Nov 2010
61612 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 12:06 pm to
quote:

Hampton concluded (speculated) that Hap Arnold had probably ordered the Whirling Dervish to travel to the Soviet Union to determine whether the Soviets might allow US bombers to utilize Soviet territory to attack Japan.
You know there was more than ample communication between the US and Soviet leadership at that time. A world war, lend lease, etc. You have to ask yourself why would we send a pilot of a B-25 over to violate the Soviet's airspace and then have him try to communicate with Stalin?

Does that make any sense to anybody?
Posted by Wishnitwas1998
where TN, MS, and AL meet
Member since Oct 2010
61680 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 12:23 pm to
Weird I've never heard about this, interesting story
Posted by facher08
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2011
5135 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 12:37 pm to
The OT needs more posts like this one.
This post was edited on 6/19/24 at 12:38 pm
Posted by Radio One
On the banks of the Wabash
Member since Sep 2023
4780 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 12:38 pm to
quote:

You have to ask yourself why would we send a pilot of a B-25 over to violate the Soviet's airspace and then have him try to communicate with Stalin?

You need someone as crazy — and handsome — as Rudolf Hess to pull off something like that.
Posted by Czechessential
Member since Apr 2024
1437 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 12:41 pm to
quote:

You need someone as crazy — and handsome — as Rudolf Hess to pull off something like that.


Bob Hoover says hold my beer stein
Posted by jcaz
Laffy
Member since Aug 2014
17687 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 12:45 pm to
quote:

Hampton concluded (speculated) that Hap Arnold had probably ordered the Whirling Dervish to travel to the Soviet Union to determine whether the Soviets might allow US bombers to utilize Soviet territory to attack Japan.

I mean we couldn't have just asked Stalin thru official diplomatic channels?
I think the crew likely figured out they had better survival odds in Russia than not making it to China.
Posted by Czechessential
Member since Apr 2024
1437 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 12:46 pm to
quote:

I think the crew likely figured out they had better survival odds in Russia than not making it to China.



I think this is the case
Posted by blueridgeTiger
Granbury, TX
Member since Jun 2004
21721 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 12:50 pm to
quote:


I mean we couldn't have just asked Stalin thru official diplomatic channels?


That had already been done. Stalin was somewhat evasive in responding.
Posted by RandySavage
Member since May 2012
33562 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 12:51 pm to
quote:

Hampton concluded (speculated) that Hap Arnold had probably ordered the Whirling Dervish to travel to the Soviet Union to determine whether the Soviets might allow US bombers to utilize Soviet territory to attack Japan.


They were our allies, we couldn't have just asked?

ETA: See that's already been covered. So if he was evasive in responding Roosevelt and our military leaders what were a couple of guys on a random plane showing up going to do to force his hand/persuade him?
This post was edited on 6/19/24 at 12:53 pm
Posted by blueridgeTiger
Granbury, TX
Member since Jun 2004
21721 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 12:57 pm to
quote:

our military leaders what were a couple of guys on a random plane showing up going to do to force his hand/persuade him?


That seems to be Hampton's thesis. It's possible Roosevelt was not even in the picture but that this was an effort by Hap Arnold.
Posted by TigerGman
Center of the Universe
Member since Sep 2006
12445 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 12:59 pm to
quote:

You need someone as crazy — and handsome — as Rudolf Hess to pull off something like that.


Indeed
Posted by Wishnitwas1998
where TN, MS, and AL meet
Member since Oct 2010
61680 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 1:11 pm to
quote:

TA: See that's already been covered. So if he was evasive in responding Roosevelt and our military leaders what were a couple of guys on a random plane showing up going to do to force his hand/persuade him?


I guess force him to shite or get off the pot

We have to remember at the time of the Doolittle raid the outcome of the Pacific War was very much up in the air. It was close to the low point of our position in the Pacific. The atomic bomb wasn't even really a serious thought among most military people. It was even before Midway

Obviously I don't think any serious people were afraid of Japan invading the mainland US but there were major concerns regarding what kind of territory/resources we might lose control of in the event of Japan forcing a negotiated peace

So having the Soviet Union as an option to launch planes from would've been a huge development in our efforts at the time and we didn't have years to sit around waiting on Stalin to give us a yes or no
This post was edited on 6/19/24 at 1:15 pm
Posted by soccerfüt
Location: A Series of Tubes
Member since May 2013
70311 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 1:13 pm to
quote:

You need someone as crazy — and handsome — as Rudolf Hess to pull off something like that.
<——Touched the wrecked fuselage of Hess’ plane (Bf110) on 10/12/22 at Duxford, UK.
Posted by Radio One
On the banks of the Wabash
Member since Sep 2023
4780 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 1:17 pm to
quote:

<——Touched the wrecked fuselage of Hess’ plane (Bf110) on 10/12/22 at Duxford, UK.

I mean, that’s somewhat cool but I also now think you suck because you’ve done something I’ll never get to

So it’s a wash?
Posted by LSU Delts
Louisiana
Member since Dec 2007
2605 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 1:19 pm to
We should have listened to Patton.
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
102393 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 1:20 pm to
quote:

You have to ask yourself why would we send a pilot of a B-25 over to violate the Soviet's airspace and then have him try to communicate with Stalin?



Maybe we had already gone through diplomatic channels and the soviets were noncommittal. It would be a way of putting them on the spot. "Better to ask forgiveness than permission."

I will say this decision would be above Arnold's pay grade. It would have to come from the War Department if not the White House itself.
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