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Started By
Message
re: Student Loan Extended (Again)!
Posted on 4/7/22 at 1:21 pm to Ross
Posted on 4/7/22 at 1:21 pm to Ross
quote:
I'm not sure how people cannot see that all we accomplish by subsidizing student loans is ensuring that tuition continues to exponentially increase. There is no incentive structure for colleges to do otherwise if we basically streamline government backed money gets to them with zero risk.
And as that cost has gone up and up, the loans are being shorted more and more, just like the subprime housing market. And just like in that case, the financial institutions will be bailed out, and the average struggling American citizen will get nothing.
quote:
If it is so immoral to expect people to pay back money they borrowed to the point where we end up forgiving all the ones already administered, you better never give out another student loan.
Absolutely. They should gone, and further to your next point:
quote:
The only way I see this story ending is people being priced out of college degrees because free college will not be a burden the taxpayer is willing to shoulder and businesses moving towards accepting certifications for certain skillsets instead.
In an ideal world, yeah, but that would require a lot of rich and powerful people, companies, institutions, etc largely going against their own interests so I won't hold my breath.
It's hard to say this isn't all by design. Student loans are a way of straddling the younger generations with life long debt so that they stay somewhat dumb and poor. Not to mention getting wall street fat cats loads of cash on absurd interest accrual.
When people owe twice as much now as they borrowed 5-10 years ago, and you can't even discharge the debt through bankruptcy like everything else, it's just predatory.
There's no reason why any tax paying American citizen should have to go into that kind of debt for an education, especially when entry level jobs require bachelor's or even graduate degrees. Maybe if flipping burgers or stocking a grocery store was a viable alternative, but we as a nation have already labeled those workers as undeserving of a living wage.
1
Posted on 4/7/22 at 1:22 pm to AMS
quote:
because as you said, there is no subjectivity... if you had read through the contracts
Ok great, so we agree that they are contracts. Thanks
Posted on 4/7/22 at 1:23 pm to AMS
Maybe funding colleges through grants for research and 18 y/o kids taking out loans isnt the best way to go about funding higher education.
Posted on 4/7/22 at 1:26 pm to OceanMan
quote:
Ok great, so we agree that they are contracts. Thanks
here's the blanket cancellation clause again, bc you didn't read that earlier either
under general legal powers in the HEA which applies to all federal student loan contracts:
quote:
In the performance of, and with respect to, the
functions, powers, and duties, vested in him by
this part, the Secretary may—
(6) enforce, pay, compromise, waive, or release any right, title, claim, lien, or demand,
however acquired, including any equity or any
right of redemption.
Posted on 4/7/22 at 1:31 pm to OceanMan
quote:
TOPS is a scholarship
Funded by? Hint: tax money.
quote:
that should have minimized or eliminated the need for a loan.
LSU yearly tuition: $11,958
TOPS yearly max: $7,462.98
So right off the bat, before housing, books, meals, etc, a student with TOPS is out nearly $18,000 for tuition alone for 4 years.
Posted on 4/7/22 at 1:33 pm to Duke
quote:
Maybe funding colleges through grants for research and 18 y/o kids taking out loans isnt the best way to go about funding higher education.
Yeah I never understand people who can't admit that the "way we've always done things" isn't always the best way.
Posted on 4/7/22 at 1:36 pm to Duke
quote:
Maybe funding colleges through grants for research and 18 y/o kids taking out loans isnt the best way to go about funding higher education.
I mean i agree with that. didnt really have anything to do with what i posted tho
Posted on 4/7/22 at 1:36 pm to AMS
quote:
forbearance or deferment.
Neither of these mean forgiveness. Which is the section below the one you quoted.
quote:
the contract 100% includes entirely voluntary blanket clauses to negate payments and/or debts for all borrowers. so enough nonsense about not fulfilling contracts, which is devoid of factual basis.
Nope. It gives specific instances for forgiveness. The forbearance and deferment are the items that provide discretion and would be provided on a compulsory basis, which you quoted above.
Now what it does say about not paying your loan balance can be found in the “default” section.
Posted on 4/7/22 at 1:37 pm to Spankum
quote:
While he is at it, I hope he reimburses me the $50K that I owed when I graduated from LSU some 30 years ago….
I also want a 50k 4 bedroom home---but that ain't happening
Posted on 4/7/22 at 1:37 pm to AMS
quote:
I mean i agree with that. didnt really have anything to do with what i posted tho
You were just the last post in the thread when I responded. It wasn't a response to your post really, just the most convenient place for me to respond from.
Posted on 4/7/22 at 1:42 pm to OceanMan
quote:
Nope. It gives specific instances for forgiveness. The forbearance and deferment are the items that provide discretion and would be provided on a compulsory basis, which you quoted above.
Now what it does say about not paying your loan balance can be found in the “default” section.
I notice you skipped over the HEA clause for the second time and are seeming willfully ignorant at this point. the MPN acknowledges that it is in accordance with the HEA...
for the 3rd time:
quote:
In the performance of, and with respect to, the
functions, powers, and duties, vested in him by
this part, the Secretary may—
(6) enforce, pay, compromise, waive, or release any right, title, claim, lien, or demand,
however acquired, including any equity or any
right of redemption.
Posted on 4/7/22 at 1:53 pm to TH03
quote:
quote:
TOPS is a scholarship
Funded by? Hint: tax money.
So is I-10, what’s your point?
quote:
So right off the bat, before housing, books, meals, etc, a student with TOPS is out nearly $18,000 for tuition alone for 4 years.
So it did indeed minimize the need for a loan? Could it have eliminated tuition at a different Louisiana university?
Posted on 4/7/22 at 2:03 pm to OceanMan
quote:
So it did indeed minimize the need for a loan?
Let me simplify this for you.
Government backs student loans, which made sense because if someone defaulted before, the lender can't really repossess their degree so there had to be an incentive for them to lend.
But
An unintended consequence was that the universities, seeing that students are rushing to get loans and they know they'll get every dime owed to them, start exponentially raising their tuition.
Now, nearly 60 years later, we have an absolutely broken system because of greed. Universities and lenders have been squeezing every penny they can from Americans who just wanted an education like they were told their whole lives they needed.
TOPS money varies by school so some students only get $3k a year. Regardless, it's a government solution to a problem partially created by the government which doesn't 100% fix the problem so it's honestly irrelevant what it actually covers.
It's as if I came over, broke your leg, and then gave you a cane and said deal with it. Does the cane let you walk? Sure. Can you walk like you did before? frick no, I broke your damn leg.
Posted on 4/7/22 at 2:07 pm to AMS
quote:
I notice you skipped over the HEA clause for the second time and are seeming willfully ignorant at this point. the MPN acknowledges that it is in accordance with the HEA...
You went from saying that what you signed may not be a contract and that leniency to the extent of forgiveness is explicit within that contract. Now you are relying on a reference in the doc to the law that governs student loans that would either have to be amended through a literal act of Congress or a very bold and questionable interpretation by the POTUS admin of the current law to enact such power?
And I’m the one being willfully ignorant?
Posted on 4/7/22 at 2:23 pm to TH03
quote:
Let me simplify this for you.
No thanks. Your simplification is being used to have an illogical argument.
Stay on track. This started because I said taking the TOPS scholarship does not violate one’s integrity for being against blanket student loan forgiveness, strictly based on the fact that both would be funded from “taxpayer money”.
I’m well aware of the issues surrounding higher learning and the increasing cost of tuition. One has to weigh not only if they should go to college, but the degree programs and schools that give them the greatest chance at success. I think I demonstrated that when I called education an investment which you laughed at.
quote:
Americans who just wanted an education like they were told their whole lives they needed.
Interesting that not every successful and/or educated person in the US is currently saddled with debt. Maybe they got different advice than from whoever it is that you’re referring to?
Posted on 4/7/22 at 2:23 pm to TH03
quote:
And as that cost has gone up and up, the loans are being shorted more and more, just like the subprime housing market. And just like in that case, the financial institutions will be bailed out, and the average struggling American citizen will get nothing.
As far as I'm aware, the loans are backed upon default by the federal government. I believe this applies to both federal and privately issued loans. I wasn't aware financial products existed which collateralized these loans and I certainly don't see how shorting those products would be profitable when Uncle Sam can essentially work to create money to cover the difference. The money is already guaranteed. That's why I think tuition is currently in a positive feedback loop that will only be broken when people opt out of going to college, or student loans are no longer backed by the federal government upon default.
I know you already know this; what I don't know is what you'd recommend to fix the current system. As it stands, I doubt people are going to be able to fix it so I think it'll fall apart.
quote:
In an ideal world, yeah, but that would require a lot of rich and powerful people, companies, institutions, etc largely going against their own interests so I won't hold my breath.
I don't think the transition would be that rough for moving to certifications over a four year degree at a university, honestly. As a Mechanical Engineer, I do worry it would mean we'd have a harder time conversing with other types of engineers or other parts of the company because we'd basically be in our own little echo chamber, but to some extent that's already the case even at a university.
This post was edited on 4/7/22 at 2:36 pm
Posted on 4/7/22 at 2:24 pm to OceanMan
quote:
You went from saying that what you signed may not be a contract and that leniency to the extent of forgiveness is explicit within that contract. Now you are relying on a reference in the doc to the law that governs student loans that would either have to be amended through a literal act of Congress or a very bold and questionable interpretation by the POTUS admin of the current law to enact such power?
And I’m the one being willfully ignorant?
you certainly have reading comprehension issues, but correct you are being willfully ignorant. although Im not claiming POTUS can do it, just that there is certainly blanket clauses for debt cancellation. under the T&C of the contract, the education secretary has the general legal power to do so.
quote:
1. LAWS THAT APPLY TO THIS MPN AND OTHER LEGAL INFORMATION
The terms and conditions of loans made under this MPN are determined by the Higher Education Act of 1965, as amended (the HEA), and other federal laws and regulations
the MPN explicitly states the T&C are determined by the HEA other laws and regs. by signing the MPN you are explicitly agreeing to T&C in the HEA.
try to move goalposts all you want, but the fact remains the contract includes clauses for blanket cancellation.
This post was edited on 4/7/22 at 3:20 pm
Posted on 4/7/22 at 2:56 pm to OceanMan
quote:
Interesting that not every successful and/or educated person in the US is currently saddled with debt. Maybe they got different advice than from whoever it is that you’re referring to?
Your argument is seriously "I didn't experience it so it isn't real"?
Posted on 4/7/22 at 3:02 pm to TH03
quote:
Your argument is seriously "I didn't experience it so it isn't real"?
oceanman can hardly even acknowledge objective facts when spoon fed direct quotes. I expect a near 0 if not 0 amount of meaningful discussion with that poster. oceanmans mind is made up facts be damned.
This post was edited on 4/7/22 at 3:18 pm
Posted on 4/7/22 at 3:24 pm to AMS
quote:
the MPN explicitly states the T&C are determined by the HEA other laws and regs. by signing the MPN you are explicitly agreeing to T&C in the HEA.
try to move goalposts all you want, but the fact remains the contract includes clauses for blanket cancellation.
Yes I acknowledged that the contract was governed by the law. But the law does not currently provide for blanket forgiveness.
I’m not moving the goalposts and certainly not the one with reading comprehension issues. The contract says you have to pay it back. Says it multiple times. You provided language about forbearance and deferment, not for forgiveness. There are no clauses for blanket forgiveness or else you would have provided that language. At best, what you have provided is the potential for another document OUTSIDE of the agreement that has yet to be drafted or executed to alter your existing contract. But for now, you are bound by the terms within that contract.
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