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re: Statistics Spinoff Thread: How much would you pay to play this "game of chance"

Posted on 1/15/16 at 4:09 pm to
Posted by PearlJam
NotBeardEaves
Member since Aug 2014
13908 posts
Posted on 1/15/16 at 4:09 pm to
quote:

You have a 50% chance of getting $0 on the first flip now. 

You also have a 50% chance of getting $4
So what is the EV of the first flip?
Posted by slackster
Houston
Member since Mar 2009
91874 posts
Posted on 1/15/16 at 4:12 pm to
quote:

If I flip heads on the first flip I win $2.


No. If you flip heads on the first flip you win nothing yet. The pot has grown, however.

The game is how many heads you can flip before you flip a tails.
Posted by PearlJam
NotBeardEaves
Member since Aug 2014
13908 posts
Posted on 1/15/16 at 4:14 pm to
quote:

If you flip heads on the first flip you win nothing yet. The pot has grown
I am, at all times, guaranteed the $ in the pot. So once I flip heads, I have won that $.

Flipping tails doesn't win the $, it ends the game.

By playing, I'm guaranteed the $2 pot. To say my expected value on the first flip is .5 of $2 doesn't make sense.
This post was edited on 1/15/16 at 4:17 pm
Posted by Speedy G
Member since Aug 2013
3984 posts
Posted on 1/15/16 at 4:16 pm to
quote:

If I flip heads on the first flip I win $2.

You don't win anything until you flip a tails.

quote:

With the ops question on the first flip I have 2 outcomes- Get $2 or get more than $2

Not exactly. You either win $2 or flip again. That is the problem. The game can go on forever. That is why the expected payout is always infinite, no matter where you are in the game.

If we set a limit (5 flips, 10, 20, 100, whatever), we can get actual solutions with real numbers (i.e. not infinity).
Posted by PearlJam
NotBeardEaves
Member since Aug 2014
13908 posts
Posted on 1/15/16 at 4:18 pm to
quote:

You don't win anything until you flip a tails.
This is the difference between a mathematical equation and gambling. Based on the rules of the game I get the pot. Whatever is in it, I have won.
Posted by slackster
Houston
Member since Mar 2009
91874 posts
Posted on 1/15/16 at 4:20 pm to
quote:

So what is the EV of the first flip?


I think we're going in circles here. You can look at the EV of the first flip two ways.

1) EV is infinity since you have a 50% of winning nothing (assuming your rule of $0 if you flip tails to start) and a 50% chance of winning $4 or more - which can be expressed as a 25% chance of winning exactly $4, a 12.5% chance of winning exactly $8, a 6.25% chance of winning exactly $16... all the way to infinity. Those only equal $1 each, but they add up forever, so the sum is infinite. You have a 50% chance of winning $0 and a 50% chance of winning infinite dollars - the answer is still infinite

2) The value of winning the pot - flipping a tails on the first flip - is 50% times the pot of $0 due to your added rule. The value of that outcome is $0.
Posted by PearlJam
NotBeardEaves
Member since Aug 2014
13908 posts
Posted on 1/15/16 at 4:21 pm to
quote:

I think we're going in circles here.
we are. A little intentionally on my part.
Posted by slackster
Houston
Member since Mar 2009
91874 posts
Posted on 1/15/16 at 4:24 pm to
quote:

This is the difference between a mathematical equation and gambling. Based on the rules of the game I get the pot. Whatever is in it, I have won.


Sure, but gambling or mathematically, you don't get the pot until you flip a tails. It sounds contradictory, because you'd think you want to flip heads for as long as possible, but you don't win the pot until you flip a tails.

You have similar odds to win the Powerball as you do to flipping heads 27 times in a row in this game, but you don't win any money until you flip that tails on the 28th flip.
Posted by tigercross
Member since Feb 2008
5075 posts
Posted on 1/15/16 at 4:41 pm to
quote:

Mathematically, the problem is that the payouts and probabilities and growing/shrinking in proportion to one another, so there is no convergence. With no convergence, there is not limit, and thus no real answer.


Correct. The series to calculate the expected payout per player does not converge so we can't figure this out.
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