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re: Police investigate photo of Pennsylvania student stomping on American flag
Posted on 2/16/16 at 10:35 am to John88
Posted on 2/16/16 at 10:35 am to John88
The stomping/burning/etc. of the U.S. flag by U.S. citizens has always seemed childish and petulant to me.
On one hand, you're expressing your displeasure with the U.S. OK, gotcha.
On the other hand, you're vandalizing a symbol of the country that allows you to do such things without reprisal.
Try flying to Tehran and burning the Iranian flag in public and see what happens...
Bottom line: If you want to express your displeasure with the U.S., think of something more creative and/or productive than destroying the flag.
On one hand, you're expressing your displeasure with the U.S. OK, gotcha.
On the other hand, you're vandalizing a symbol of the country that allows you to do such things without reprisal.
Try flying to Tehran and burning the Iranian flag in public and see what happens...
Bottom line: If you want to express your displeasure with the U.S., think of something more creative and/or productive than destroying the flag.
Posted on 2/16/16 at 10:37 am to USAF Hart
quote:
Whoever knowingly mutilates, defaces, physically defiles, burns, maintains on the floor or ground, or tramples upon any flag of the United States shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both.
Typical stupid reactionary bullshite. Destroy the substance to save the symbol. The freedom to desecrate the flag is the very thing that it stands for and what makes it so fricking awesome.
This post was edited on 2/16/16 at 10:39 am
Posted on 2/16/16 at 10:39 am to Nuts4LSU
quote:
Typical stupid reactionary bullshite. Destroy the substance to save the symbol. The freedom to desecrate the flag is the very thing that it stands for and what makes it so fricking awesome.
^gets it
Posted on 2/16/16 at 10:46 am to lsu2006
quote:
Yeah, that law was decided to be void by a group of judges who decide what the men who wrote the constitution actually meant.
FIFY.
Unless something is clearly against the premise of the constitution it is not unconstitutional. It may be found void due to legal precedent, but that does not mean it violates the constitution just that it differs from the scotus interpretation. I liken it to the reason there are inordinate amounts of christian doctrines all from the same book. If you try hard enough and are convincing enough you can make anything good or bad, even if the intent of the writer would have been opposing of your views.
Posted on 2/16/16 at 10:50 am to AwesomeSauce
You're reaching. The constitution and the supreme court's interpretation of the constitution are the supreme law of the land. Even so, proscribing a form of expression/speech is directly in conflict with the first amendment.
Posted on 2/16/16 at 10:56 am to USAF Hart
quote:
18 U.S. Code § 700 - Desecration of the flag of the United States; penalties
it's protected free speech no matter how dumb you and I think it is.
also, you're in the air force and you don't understand the 1st amendment?
Posted on 2/16/16 at 10:56 am to John88
For many of the reasons already noted burning the flag, while very disrespectful will gain you more enemies than friends but it's not going to land anyone in jail. This act is intended to bait and trigger.
I guess one could 'retaliate' by defiling what ever symbol a given flag burner cherishes: wipe the floor with a Gay Pride flag, or a Don't Tread On Me flag, or an Earth Day flag?
The whole concept of burning the US flag strikes me as puerile, at best.
I guess one could 'retaliate' by defiling what ever symbol a given flag burner cherishes: wipe the floor with a Gay Pride flag, or a Don't Tread On Me flag, or an Earth Day flag?
The whole concept of burning the US flag strikes me as puerile, at best.
Posted on 2/16/16 at 10:57 am to lsu2006
quote:Yes it is. My issue is that the document never changes, but the interpretation does. What is constitutionally protected today can be deemed unconstitutional if the justices sway their opinion in that way. Political views and ideology effect the interpretation of the particular judges while the intent of the document never wavers. I do not deny that this is the supreme law of the land, but the purity of the interpretation compared to the purity of the written word does exist.
The constitution and the supreme court's interpretation of the constitution are the supreme law of the land.
This post was edited on 2/16/16 at 10:59 am
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:02 am to AwesomeSauce
quote:
What is constitutionally protected today can be deemed unconstitutional if the justices sway their opinion in that way.
This is exceedingly rare and occurs over the course of several decades, typically. Which is more or less how our system was supposed to work. All 9 justices don't just wake up one day and say "HEY LETS ALLOW GAYS TO MARRY!"
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:13 am to John88
Why is law enforcement involved? No laws broken. It's a school issue. Desecration of a flag is protected.
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:16 am to LSUTANGERINE
To be fair, the school could conceivably press charges for destruction of property, vandalism or conversion or the like if they actually destroyed it and it's school property. But that would be utterly absurd and a waste of everyone's time.
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:18 am to lsu2006
quote:
This is exceedingly rare and occurs over the course of several decades, typically. Which is more or less how our system was supposed to work. All 9 justices don't just wake up one day and say "HEY LETS ALLOW GAYS TO MARRY!
Of course it takes decades, and I have not expressed how I feel about it only that it's their opinion of the intent. There is a reason political parties either get giddy or nervous when a justice passes away or leaves office. Yes, I meant the word giddy, if you think the DNC was not excited when Scalia died you are fooling yourself. The SCOTUS can be influenced, the written word cannot. If a catholic, a baptist, a pentecostal, and a quaker all read the bible and are asked to make a determination of x based on the bible's teachings there will be differing opinions. The same holds true for SCOTUS, the word does not change but the ideology does.
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:26 am to Nuts4LSU
Yep. You better respect us for fighting for your freedom to burn the flag. But you better not burn one.
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:27 am to lsu2006
Yes. But the school did not press charges. So there is absolutely no reason for the police to be involved.
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:36 am to AwesomeSauce
None of what you've said is inherently wrong, nor does any of it change the fact that outlawing flag desecration is unconstitutional.
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:51 am to lsu2006
quote:
unconstitutional.
This is my entire problem with your statement. The constitution is either determined to be of text and intent or of precedent and ideology. That was my sole issue with your phrasing. There is very little that is unconstitutional while a good many of our laws are set by precedent and interpretations of the document. Unconstitutional is a term that can encompass a few but not all of SCOTUS' rulings. The fact that currency is protected but the flag is not is due to precedent, not due to the constitution.
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:57 am to AwesomeSauce
Fair enough. Would "invalid and unenforceable" make you happy?
Posted on 2/16/16 at 12:00 pm to AwesomeSauce
quote:
I liken it to the reason there are inordinate amounts of christian doctrines all from the same book. If you try hard enough and are convincing enough you can make anything good or bad, even if the intent of the writer would have been opposing of your views.
I once read a quote by a noted biblical scholar: "The Bible is like a person; if you torture it enough, you can get it to say anything."
Posted on 2/16/16 at 12:25 pm to lsu2006
Yes. At laughable as it is, the term unconstitutional is a huge pet peeve of mine. Especially given the complete ignorance to constitutional law and how SCOTUS determines precedent by the majority of the American populace. Its a dumbed down term to describe an intricate and complex process to determining legal precedence.
Posted on 2/16/16 at 12:29 pm to AwesomeSauce
quote:
Its a dumbed down term to describe an intricate and complex process to determining legal precedence.
Well, the majority of the population of the OT more than likely doesn't consist of constitutional scholars. I was just trying to get the point across. I'd say "unconstitutional" does that quite well. I understand what you're saying. And yes, it is kind of laughable outside of an academic context. You clearly know what you're talking about, though, I'll give you that.
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