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re: OT Engineers—How Insulating is Bubble Wrap?

Posted on 12/21/22 at 11:06 pm to
Posted by JJJimmyJimJames
Southern States
Member since May 2020
18496 posts
Posted on 12/21/22 at 11:06 pm to
quote:

You oughta not be giving advice on pipes

so the damage is done when it freezes then bursts when ice melts...

I know the damage from pipes is done when water is able to move in the the pipe after freezing - have seen it several times

and coincidental damages
This post was edited on 12/21/22 at 11:08 pm
Posted by JudgeHolden
Gila River
Member since Jan 2008
18566 posts
Posted on 12/21/22 at 11:23 pm to
quote:

new rag


Playtex? Kotex? Poise? Always?
Posted by lostinbr
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Oct 2017
11705 posts
Posted on 12/21/22 at 11:33 pm to
quote:

So basically air isn’t conductive but it moves easily, so it can convectively move a lot of heat if a lot of it flows past. Right?

Basically.

The rate of heat transfer via conduction is a function of (among other things) the temperature gradient. In a “pure conduction” scenario the air molecules do not move relative to each other - meaning they basically behave like a solid. So you get a linear temperature gradient across the air gap where each molecule slowly transfers heat to the next, slightly cooler, molecule.

In a “pure convection” scenario, the air molecules can move freely including interacting with the environment. Heat is conducted from the pipe to the closest air molecules. However, the warm air right next to the pipe becomes less dense and basically floats away, being replaced by cooler air from the environment. This creates a much steeper temperature gradient and therefore a higher rate of heat loss.

You still technically have a conductive boundary layer but it’s very thin. So it’s kind of analogous to taking 1” of fiberglass insulation and cutting it down to 1 mm.

The “pure conduction” scenario isn’t real because air is a gas and molecules will always move around to some extent.

The “pure convection” scenario is what happens with no insulation at all.

All insulation materials/methods that use air as a barrier fall somewhere in between. Convection can occur within each cell, but (ideally) not between the cells and the environment. The more cells you have between the heat source and the heat sink, the more it approaches pure conduction. If you have gaps where air can flow freely between the environment and the layers of cells (e.g. bubble wrap that’s not sealed in the ends) then the heat can escape before passing through all of the cells.

The structural material that holds the air in place matters a lot. The smaller the cells get, the more structural material you have. The structure also conducts heat. So typically it’s important that the actual material of foam / aerogel insulation also be fairly non-conductive. Otherwise the heat will just flow through the solid structure and the air in the cells becomes ineffective.
Posted by BHM
Member since Jun 2012
3575 posts
Posted on 12/21/22 at 11:36 pm to
quote:

Won’t the metal of the pipe conduct heat from the ground?


Yes it would but many other factors are involved that determine if the pipe or faucet will freeze.

How cold is the ground? In many places, the ground is frozen many inches deep.

How far out the ground is the pipe. Three inches and ground heat might keep it just above freezing. Three feet and ground heat will do nothing.

Just how cold is the air? 31 degrees and it could take forever to freeze a pipe. Negative 31, that pipe will freeze.

Bottom line is that there are many factors but without a heat source, insulation will only slow down the time to freeze. Insulation can only take advantage of what heat source is available.

Posted by lostinbr
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Oct 2017
11705 posts
Posted on 12/21/22 at 11:48 pm to
quote:

better safe than sorry - the damage is caused not when the water in the pipe freezes - it is caused when the water in the pipe THAWS causing expansion then burst

This is completely wrong.

Water expands when it freezes. It’s why icebergs float.
quote:

one more thing, moving water will not freeze - if you can leave it dripping just a little it shouldnt freeze

This is also inaccurate. Moving water can absolutely freeze. If you have a strong enough drip (and temperatures aren’t too low) it can help prevent freezing just because the water is constantly being replaced by warmer water from the line, but that’s not why you drip your faucets.

You drip your faucets because when an ice plug forms in a dead leg, it expands longitudinally like a hydraulic piston and causes the part of the line between the plug and the dead leg to overpressure. By dripping the faucet, you give the line a pressure relief.

Typically the plug itself will not actually rupture the pipe because it will expand along the length of the pipe. It’s the water at the end that causes a problem because it has nowhere to go.
Posted by DownshiftAndFloorIt
Here
Member since Jan 2011
69069 posts
Posted on 12/21/22 at 11:55 pm to
No you dumbass. Read post above this one.
Posted by VanRIch
Wherever
Member since Sep 2007
10997 posts
Posted on 12/24/22 at 7:33 pm to
quote:

better safe than sorry - the damage is caused not when the water in the pipe freezes - it is caused when the water in the pipe THAWS causing expansion then burst


Completely incorrect.
Posted by JackaReaux
BR
Member since Feb 2017
906 posts
Posted on 12/24/22 at 8:39 pm to
I think he meant “not sure. Air is a very good insulator”
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