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Do publically traded companies incentivize their companies to steal or cheat?

Posted on 3/19/18 at 9:56 pm
Posted by Mud_Till_May
Member since Aug 2014
9685 posts
Posted on 3/19/18 at 9:56 pm
There are millions of dollars at stake in the stock market. Really there are only so many dollars available from investors.

If companies show an ability to produce a profit to get investor dollars doesnt that incentivize them to cheat to pay off investors dividends or get new investors?
Posted by SLafourche07
Member since Feb 2008
10055 posts
Posted on 3/19/18 at 10:02 pm to
quote:

There are millions of dollars at stake in the stock market


Only a few.

quote:

pay off investors dividends


How do you pay off dividends?

quote:

If companies show an ability to produce a profit to get investor dollars doesnt that incentivize them to cheat


If a company doesn't show an ability to produce a profit does that incentivize them to cheat?
Posted by MikeD
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2004
8612 posts
Posted on 3/19/18 at 10:05 pm to
It incentivizes them to act in short term interest for returns vs long term steady growth
Posted by slackster
Houston
Member since Mar 2009
91874 posts
Posted on 3/19/18 at 10:07 pm to
quote:

If companies show an ability to produce a profit to get investor dollars doesnt that incentivize them to cheat to pay off investors dividends or get new investors?




Hell, there are plenty of companies who don't even turn a profit yet have incredible valuations.
Posted by BIWO
Member since Dec 2015
1821 posts
Posted on 3/19/18 at 10:07 pm to
Ever since Enron and WorldCom, it’s gotten so much more difficult with Sarbanes Oxley and auditors actually doing their jobs now.

You can cook the books in the short term for only so long before you get caught it’s not worth it anymore.
Posted by Pecker
Rocky Top
Member since May 2015
16674 posts
Posted on 3/19/18 at 10:08 pm to
As opposed to being private and not needing to make a profit?
Posted by Mud_Till_May
Member since Aug 2014
9685 posts
Posted on 3/19/18 at 10:27 pm to
A private owner is much more understanding than a group of hedge fund managers that answer to other people.
Posted by Mud_Till_May
Member since Aug 2014
9685 posts
Posted on 3/19/18 at 10:28 pm to
Im talking about wells fargo shenanigans and creating new accounts in customer names.
Posted by Mud_Till_May
Member since Aug 2014
9685 posts
Posted on 3/19/18 at 10:30 pm to
thats so they dont have to pay dividends to their investors. Henry ford did this text book style.
Posted by East Coast Band
Member since Nov 2010
67002 posts
Posted on 3/19/18 at 10:31 pm to
Just ask Wells Fargo
Posted by Mud_Till_May
Member since Aug 2014
9685 posts
Posted on 3/19/18 at 10:32 pm to
If they didnt get turned in by the people theyd still be doing it.
Posted by jefforize
Member since Feb 2008
46362 posts
Posted on 3/19/18 at 10:34 pm to
sox auditors sniff around like crazy. internal and external.
Posted by East Coast Band
Member since Nov 2010
67002 posts
Posted on 3/19/18 at 10:54 pm to
I'd be extremely surprised if Wells FArgo was the only company manipulating numbers (and their employees) to create better than looking stats for their stockholders.
Posted by Mingo Was His NameO
Brooklyn
Member since Mar 2016
37542 posts
Posted on 3/19/18 at 11:13 pm to
quote:

I'd be extremely surprised if Wells FArgo was the only company manipulating numbers (and their employees) to create better than looking stats for their stockholders.


That's not why Wells Fargo was creating accounts. It was for upper management to get sales bonuses. There's definitely ways to manipulate your accounting and books to make yourself look better, but fraud isn't one of them. Most are tactics that are just too complex for most people that don't have a deep understandig of accounting to understand but they're legal.
Posted by Pechon
unperson
Member since Oct 2011
7748 posts
Posted on 3/19/18 at 11:20 pm to
quote:

Hell, there are plenty of companies who don't even turn a profit yet have incredible valuations.


Plenty of tech startups are this way. Especially in enterprise data storage. Plenty of them operated for years, even going public without ever turning a profit. Why? So they get bought out by a larger company.
Posted by Pechon
unperson
Member since Oct 2011
7748 posts
Posted on 3/19/18 at 11:24 pm to
quote:

sox auditors sniff around like crazy. internal and external.


Precisely. Arthur Andersen was brought down as a result of not reporting the rampant fraud at Enron. No way in hell would firms like Deloitte, PWC, and KPMG would want to suffer the same fate.
Posted by rpr4695
Member since May 2013
2132 posts
Posted on 3/19/18 at 11:34 pm to
quote:

Hell, there are plenty of companies who don't even turn a profit yet have incredible valuations.


Posted by foshizzle
Washington DC metro
Member since Mar 2008
40599 posts
Posted on 3/20/18 at 5:28 am to
Sure, corporations have an incentive to cook the books. The problem is that eventually it becomes obvious something isn't quite right.

One of the more ingenious cases IMHO involved Intel. For awhile they made their own silicon wafers but at some point changed their mind and sold it to another company (Marvell I believe) at a loss. A pretty substantial loss actually, well below what that business was actually worth.

However, they also negotiated a side deal with Marvell that allowed Intel the ability to purchase finished silicon wafers for below market value. This compensated Intel for the unusually large loss on sale of the business. So nobody is cheated, and all this is perfectly legal so nobody got in trouble.

But why go to the trouble of this side agreement instead of just selling the business at a "correct" price and buying wafers at the market like everyone else?

Did you notice what happened here? Intel reports a loss from sale of discontinued operations, which nobody really cares about. But because they get to buy wafers at a reduced price, operating income artificially goes up, and that number is what investors do care about. The side agreement isn't a required financial disclosure either, so it allowed Intel to shift the numbers around in a way that would make it seem more profitable than it really was.

And it's all entirely legal and allowed by GAAP. That, boys and girls, is how you game the system.
Posted by VABuckeye
NOVA
Member since Dec 2007
38283 posts
Posted on 3/20/18 at 6:46 am to
quote:

There are millions of dollars at stake in the stock market.


millions, huh?
Posted by Mud_Till_May
Member since Aug 2014
9685 posts
Posted on 3/20/18 at 7:05 am to
billions, trillions, bagillions
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