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Started By
Message
re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:55 am to Kentucker
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:55 am to Kentucker
quote:
How can they rule in favor of the baker without opening the Pandora's Box of religious discrimination and making it a common excuse to exclude anyone or any group from enjoying the services and products that are offered in the marketplace?
Are you asking how will we be able to tell the difference between a service offered for a specific type of event vs a service to an individual? If a bunch of businesses want to make the terrible decision of coming out and refusing the provide their product to events they disagree with, go for it.
The wording of the ruling will be important, just as it is with any ruling. They still can't violate civil liberties. However, refusal to participate in an event does not violate an individual's civil liberties IMO.
1
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:55 am to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
You are drawing an arbitrary line as to where their work and services can be refused.
The line has to be drawn somewhere. Why not draw it where civil rights would be crossed...why would we arbitrarily draw it before that point.
They say make a typical wedding cake...okay
They say make a cake and put gay slogans on it...no
They say make a typical wedding cake and serve it at my gay wedding...no
Seems pretty clear cut to me and no one is violated.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:57 am to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
So in your opinion, the baker has no rights? At what point can they refuse to provide their services?
As with all other businesses, the baker has the right to refuse his products and services to anyone. It's when this becomes discrimination against groups or communities of people that it becomes illegal. His religious rights do not extend into the marketplace.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:57 am to Kentucker
quote:
I agree. If the baker offers other services with the cake, then he must provide them to all equally.
As long as you're on board with the Mulsim bakery up in Michigan being forced to provide their cake as well, then I'll at least commend you for having a consistent opinion. I completely disagree with it, but you'll at least be consistent.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:59 am to Steadyhands
quote:
They say make a typical wedding cake...okay
They say make a cake and put gay slogans on it...no
They say make a typical wedding cake and serve it at my gay wedding...no
Seems pretty clear cut to me and no one is violated.
Sure, but you have to say the baker's rights only begin after the base cake is made for this to work. That just isn't the case.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 12:01 pm to Kentucker
quote:
You'd have to define "gay things." This baker has already shown that he'll bake "vagina cakes" but he objects to put wording and perhaps figurines on a cake for two lesbians' wedding?
That should be the owners right to choose what he's willing to make. If you choose to make a basic wedding cake for someone then you'd have to do it for anyone. They asked for a basic wedding cake to my understanding.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 12:02 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
As long as you're on board with the Mulsim bakery up in Michigan being forced to provide their cake as well, then I'll at least commend you for having a consistent opinion.
Of course I think that bakers of any religion must comply with the law. Their religious rights are not different because they're Muslim. If they're selling in the marketplace then they must sell to everone equally.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 12:04 pm to Kentucker
quote:
As with all other businesses, the baker has the right to refuse his products and services to anyone
We agree.
quote:
It's when this becomes discrimination against groups or communities of people that it becomes illegal.
Are they refusing cakes to gay people? Or are they refusing to bake a cake for a type of event? That is a huge, huge difference. An event does not have civil liberties. A person does.
ETA: I used this example earlier:
If man goes up to an artist that he likes and asks him to do a painting for him, doesn't request the painting to be of anything, he just wants it at his exhibit. The artist can paint anything he likes. The artists asks when the exhibit is and what type of exhibit it is. The man tells him it is an anti-gay exhibit. The artist tells the man he does not provide paintings for anti-gay exhibits.
In your opinion, should the artist be forced to sell a painting to that person?
This post was edited on 12/29/17 at 12:06 pm
Posted on 12/29/17 at 12:06 pm to Kentucker
quote:So, a Muslim baker should be forced to create a Christian wedding cake?
Only if those statements offend a community's sensibilities, not if they are against the baker's religious beliefs.
quote:And deliver it to a Christian church?
No, they don't if they provide this as a service available to all.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 12:06 pm to Steadyhands
quote:
That should be the owners right to choose what he's willing to make
Not if he sells designer cakes. If he specifically offers his designer skills, then he must accommodate reasonable requests, those that don't offend community sensibilities.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 12:06 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
These bakers are bad people
quote:
LINK
quote:
Reports of death threats. In testimony Tuesday, Rachel Bowman-Cryer said she and her wife received death threats as media attention and criticism from strangers escalated in the months after the story went national in January 2013. She said the threats were part of a stream of "hateful, hurtful things" that came after the couple's contact information (home address, phone and email) was posted on Aaron Klein's personal Facebook page. She said she feared for her life and her wife's life. McCullough, during a break Friday, told The Oregonian/OregonLive that he also has received death threats tied to his involvement in the case. He said the threats contributed to a decision by BOLI officials to have Oregon State Police provide security at this week's hearing. -- Concerns for foster children. Also on Tuesday, Rachel Bowman-Cryer disclosed that she and Laurel felt an even greater level of stress because they were foster parents for two young girls and feared they might lose the children. She said they spoke to state adoption officials who told them it was the couple's responsibility to protect the children and keep privileged information confidential, even as their own privacy was threatened by news coverage of the case. "You have very little control over what the media says or does," Bowman-Cryer said. She said she and Laurel's biggest concern was "that nobody would know we had these children."
Posted on 12/29/17 at 12:09 pm to CommoDawg
Okay? Am I defending them as people?
Posted on 12/29/17 at 12:09 pm to CommoDawg
Maybe the lezbos are the bad people for starting all this shite. They were looking for a payday not a cake.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 12:09 pm to Kentucker
quote:
quote:
So in your opinion, the baker has no rights? At what point can they refuse to provide their services?
As with all other businesses, the baker has the right to refuse his products and services to anyone. It's when this becomes discrimination against groups or communities of people that it becomes illegal. His religious rights do not extend into the marketplace.
I would not say it has to be religious. There are athiests that would not want to partake in a gay wedding.
At what point does the baker's choice to not partake in the event get trumped by someone else's desire to have them. I'm all for them having to make a cake of equivalency to any others they've made before...
Would you be in favor of forcing a black baker to have to serve a cake at a kkk rally?
Posted on 12/29/17 at 12:12 pm to Cornholio
quote:
Cornholio
It's always the ones who make minimum wage that are outspoken about how businesses should be run.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 12:12 pm to CommoDawg
quote:Yeah, like the baker's didn't receive multiple death threats from people like you.
These bakers are bad people
Posted on 12/29/17 at 12:17 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
Are they refusing cakes to gay people? Or are they refusing to bake a cake for a type of event? That is a huge, huge difference.
No, it isn't. The event is a gay wedding, which is legal everywhere now.
quote:
If man goes up to an artist that he likes and asks him to do a painting for him, doesn't request the painting to be of anything, he just wants it at his exhibit. The artist can paint anything he likes. The artists asks when the exhibit is and what type of exhibit it is. The man tells him it is an anti-gay exhibit. The artist tells the man he does not provide paintings for anti-gay exhibits.
Anti-gay events, exhibits, and the like are protected under the First Amendment. The Westboro Baptist Church is the prime example of how even vulgar hate speech is perfectly legal.
However, one person's free speech can be hate speech to another person and he is not required to participate in or to validate such statements. This is a perfect example of a business owner's right to refuse service.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 12:18 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
In your opinion, should the artist be forced to sell a painting to that person?
Art is protected speech, the courts don't think baking and decorating a basic wedding cake is art so it's not protected.
quote:
However, one person's free speech can be hate speech to another person and he is not required to participate in or to validate such statements. This is a perfect example of a business owner's right to refuse service.
Baking a cake is not considered by the courts to be an exercise in free speech. The Bakers are free to deliver the cake while shouting how they hate gay.
This post was edited on 12/29/17 at 12:21 pm
Posted on 12/29/17 at 12:21 pm to bhtigerfan
quote:
So, a Muslim baker should be forced to create a Christian wedding cake?
Absolutely, and the reverse as well. This is how the marketplace works. It must be a neutral zone if everyone is to be treated equally.
quote:
And deliver to a Christian church?
Of course, if that's a service they generally provide.
This post was edited on 12/29/17 at 12:22 pm
Posted on 12/29/17 at 12:22 pm to Kentucker
quote:
No, it isn't. The event is a gay wedding, which is legal everywhere now.
Has nothing to do with the legality of the event, unless you are trying to argue that you can be forced to be a part of any event against your will, as long as the event is legal.
quote:
However, one person's free speech can be hate speech to another person and he is not required to participate in or to validate such statements.
The painter doesn't have to validate anything. All they are doing is making a painting. He could make a painting of anything he wants, doesn't have to be anti-gay or anything. The only thing he is refusing is the ability to hang his product at an event he disagrees with.
quote:
This is a perfect example of a business owner's right to refuse service.
Then, by your reasoning, it is okay for a business owner to discriminate against a customer's religious beliefs.
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