Started By
Message

re: Construction Law question: Criminal Charges for Unbalanced bidding?

Posted on 8/9/16 at 11:13 am to
Posted by DupontsCircle
Dupont Circle
Member since Jun 2016
5823 posts
Posted on 8/9/16 at 11:13 am to
quote:

Me too but it's the KO's responsibility to make sure shite runs right.


I just rewrote the Contract Admin policies for a major government client. You'd be surprised. This wasn't on the federal level. Federal is unique, but still plagued with inefficiencies. DOD has their own training programs they put their COs through, but as a whole, the Federal level has it's problems with construction, which is why many end up in disputes, delays and cost overruns.
Posted by Wtodd
Tampa, FL
Member since Oct 2013
68465 posts
Posted on 8/9/16 at 12:44 pm to
quote:

the Federal level has it's problems with construction, which is why many end up in disputes, delays and cost overruns.

You can thank the GAO, ASBCA & the courts for this.
Posted by Screaming Viking
Member since Jul 2013
5599 posts
Posted on 8/9/16 at 1:17 pm to
on lump sum public bids (by contractors), there is not much that can be done. certain contractors gamble with this type of thing all of the time. they win more than they lose because engineers rarely do complete work ahead of time.

regarding material public bids, municipalities have the ability (if they state such in the bid) to award contracts by line item. this stops most of the games. Public works projects do not have this ability.

Larger municipalities grade civil engineers annually. I have always asked why contractors are graded in the same way.
Posted by shawnlsu
Member since Nov 2011
23682 posts
Posted on 8/9/16 at 1:30 pm to
quote:

I negotiated & administered construction contracts for 14 yrs in the Air Force


So you admittedly haven't been on the contracting side of the ball waiting for the government to cut your check.
Kind of what I thought.
Posted by RealityTiger
Geismar, LA
Member since Jan 2010
20543 posts
Posted on 8/9/16 at 1:52 pm to
quote:

Bid docs have a Typo that they meant 1000 units, but they asked for only 100 units....and you don't say anything about their error, and lower cost on things that they have right, and increase it on the things that they have wrong...so that after the fact when they realize they are 900 short, you are getting the higher price on the things they incorrectly wrote down.


This was probably 80% of the jobs I was awarded as an estimator when I was doing that for a living for a sub. Tell your professor that there's this thing beyond the business college classroom called the real world.

If I find something and I have a chance to inform the engineer, he can issue out an addendum to change it. But there's always gonna be that yo yo who missed the addendum and bid on the error anyway. So a lot of times, it's better to wait until after you're awarded the job and hit them up with a change order. Then, you know everybody bid the same way on material.
Posted by cgrand
HAMMOND
Member since Oct 2009
46452 posts
Posted on 8/9/16 at 2:30 pm to
exactly
too often the bidder who finds the mistake and brings it up is the only one who encumbers his bid
Posted by notiger1997
Metairie
Member since May 2009
61274 posts
Posted on 8/9/16 at 2:38 pm to
quote:

You'd never win a bid in La if you didn't do this


No shite.
In Jefferson Parish, you could fck everything up from bidding to execution of the work in a timely and quality fashion and still be fine. Just donate a little cash to the politicians and you are all good.

Above applies to GC's, but any and all kinds of screw ups is ok, especially with A&E firms.
Posted by DupontsCircle
Dupont Circle
Member since Jun 2016
5823 posts
Posted on 8/10/16 at 6:13 am to
quote:

So a lot of times, it's better to wait until after you're awarded the job and hit them up with a change order


And then I'd cancel the contract due to irregularities in the bid. I've administrated many of these bids and if you see something, say something. Because at the end of the day, I'm not going to process change orders immediately and I will scrutinize why you're submitting a change order.

On the federal side, if there is a change submitted that was reasonably susceptible to be known prior to award, you will be held to that, especially if it's a CM at Risk contract. If the changes are substantial, all you're doing is putting your firm at risk for losses or a lengthy adjudication procedures/lawsuits.
Posted by Wtodd
Tampa, FL
Member since Oct 2013
68465 posts
Posted on 8/10/16 at 6:36 am to
quote:

So you admittedly haven't been on the contracting side of the ball waiting for the government to cut your check. Kind of what I thought.

You may want to think again & reread my post. I've been a "contracts type" for 37 yrs & it wasn't all for Uncle Sam....so if you subtract the small number from the big number, what do you get? Kinda what I thought.
Posted by ItNeverRains
Offugeaux
Member since Oct 2007
28166 posts
Posted on 8/10/16 at 6:42 am to
you know that scene in "Back To School" where Thorton Mellon teaches the class the real world of business vs the guy who teaches it at a university? Play the game, you'll learn the real world shite shortly.Everyone I know frontloads a little. maybe not 80/20, but its pretty common.
Posted by Martini
Near Athens
Member since Mar 2005
49618 posts
Posted on 8/10/16 at 7:33 am to
You aren't going to cancel a contract after it is executed and a vendor requests a legitimate change request. If you try to do that you will get an immediate response from my counsel.

Every set of contract documents are incomplete and designers put the burden on the contractors for many reasons not the least of which are ignorance, incompetence, laziness and liability. And people who don't process change orders in a timely matter are dickheads.

This is why I do zero commercial work. I do some Federal, a lot of Industrial and never have problems because I read the contract documents up front and will not enter into an agreement that is loaded against me. I'm fortunate enough to have the ability to say no. Many in this industry don't have that and they get screwed daily.
Posted by TrebleHook
Member since Jun 2016
1356 posts
Posted on 8/10/16 at 10:02 pm to
Only time I play games with bad quantities is when they are absurdly low or high.

Example: DOTD project. Whoever figured quantities figured striping in miles (was a decimal like .25 in this case) but put feet as the units. We put a crazy unit price on it that didn't amount to much in the bid. Towards the end of the project when we were doing striping and had several thousand feet of striping vs. .25 feet the project engineer shite a brick. Of course he made us renegotiate the unit price but it was funny none the less

I've had to move money around when they completely overestimate quantities. Example: 10,000 cy of dirt when you only need 5,000 cy. You either bid it like you need 10,000 cy or you put a lower unit price on it and move some profit to something you know won't be cut later on. Your total bid is the same but you make money if they cut quantities when they realize theres a bust
This post was edited on 8/10/16 at 10:03 pm
Posted by rasczak
Member since Feb 2013
43 posts
Posted on 8/10/16 at 10:45 pm to
Kujo, I don't know about other states, just some about Louisiana and federal contracting. The criminal prosecutions I have seen against contractors are mostly misapplication of funds (R.S. 14:202), one false claims act (18 USC 287), and one for mail fraud for the contractor's submission of pay apps allegedly deliberately overestimating the % completion (IMO a political vendetta against someone who wouldn't play ball).

As to sitting on knowledge of an error or ambiguity and trying to take advantage on a public contract, I think that would be very hard to turn that into a criminal false claims act case. What I do see is the estoppel/defense the feds refer to as a "patent ambiguity". An example of this being applied is seen in this case language:

"As to its remaining claims, plaintiff is eligible for an equitable adjustment only if it can show that its conduct in preparing its bid was reasonable. When a contractor is faced with an obvious omission, an inconsistency, or discrepancy of significance, he is obligated to bring the situation to the Government's attention if he intends subsequently to resolve the issue in his own favor. In this case, although plaintiff knew, or was in a position where it should have been found out, that there were serious deficiencies in the RFP technical package, it did not resolve these matters before it submitted its bid. Reasonable conduct requires greater effort to clarify obvious and important deficiencies than that exerted by plaintiff.
The question of a contractor's duty to inquire or to take further action to remove deficiencies in bidding documents has been before the court in many cases. There is a duty to seek clarification of any obvious omission. Defects in plaintiff's bid package did not involve the type of ambiguous contractual provisions that reasonably are subject to differing interpretations. The state of the RFP technical package does not involve the type of ambiguous contract provisions that would warrant application of the doctrine of contra proferentem. Nor is this a case where the contractor was required to exercise clairvoyance and spot hidden ambiguities. The deficiencies in the RFP technical package could have been uncovered by a mere checking of Exhibit A with the contents of the package. Plaintiff knew, or was in a position to know, what it had or did not have before it signed the contract." 530 F.2d 911

Louisiana has selectively applied similar logic. (see 464 So.2d 322)

I think it's really just a defense to the claim or change order, not a crime unless perhaps there is proof the bidder had actual knowledge of the plan error and obviously unbalanced the bid to take advantage of the error.

Most states have their version of the federal false claims act, so I can only assume your professor is referring to a scenario of unbalancing a bid with proof of knowledge and intent to make a windfall off the government.

Bidding on construction work is part science, and part gambling, with cash flow, the relationship with the AE/KO, weather, subs, and plain luck determining whether a project ends with a profit or losing your arse. That's why winning a public bid usually just starts the worrying about what you missed that the other bidders must have seen. And if the job is going really well for your balance sheet, praying that the owner won't terminate for convenience.
Posted by DupontsCircle
Dupont Circle
Member since Jun 2016
5823 posts
Posted on 8/10/16 at 11:04 pm to
quote:

You aren't going to cancel a contract after it is executed and a vendor requests a legitimate change request. If you try to do that you will get an immediate response from my counsel


You will lose. You come to my office and submit a change request for an equitable adjustment due to something that was a known deficiency in the bid or could have been discovered during site inspection, you bet your arse you'll lose.

CM at Risk puts the risk on the entity to bid the job and deliver to spec. If you're bidding on a job and you know there is a technical error, it is your duty to report and adjust.

And broseph, I've fought Contractors at all levels and my office/client/etc has yet to lose one I've been handling.
Posted by DupontsCircle
Dupont Circle
Member since Jun 2016
5823 posts
Posted on 8/10/16 at 11:10 pm to
Have an upvote. Well thought out post. Wish I had the time to be as eloquent
Posted by RealityTiger
Geismar, LA
Member since Jan 2010
20543 posts
Posted on 8/10/16 at 11:14 pm to
quote:

bid the job and deliver to spec


Ok, which is what I said. If you put erroneous quantities down in the spec, and I bid it that way, the onus is on you at that point once the contract is signed. You're the one that should have caught the error before releasing the RFP. If you want to put me on payroll, I'll help you plan the job with no errors. Other than that, do your job and I'll do mine - as to spec.

By the way, you can talk all big and bad but I never had problems getting a change order request approved. Not in that situation. I mean, what can the planner say other than "my mistake"?
Posted by DupontsCircle
Dupont Circle
Member since Jun 2016
5823 posts
Posted on 8/10/16 at 11:22 pm to
quote:

you put erroneous quantities down in the spec, and I bid it that way, the onus is on you at that point once the contract is signed. You're the one that should have caught the error before releasing the RFP


If I'm bidding individual units (because that's nominal issue at best, worst case rebid the defined quantity or issue a change. That's small beans really unless it's an essential major portion of the bid making up a majority of the contract cost) or an actual construction project? There's a difference. According to the FAR (if it's a federal job) if there is an error that is reasonably known, you should report the error during the bid process. If something changes in the spec by the agency or delay beyond your control (unforeseen or change in site conditions as an example), change order granted.

quote:

the way, you can talk all big and bad but I never had problems getting a change order request approved. Not in that situation. I mean, what can the planner say other than "my mistake"?


If the application for change is reasonable, it will be granted. I'm not going to cut you a change order just because.

I'm an executor of public funds, everything is under scrutiny that comes across the desk.
This post was edited on 8/10/16 at 11:25 pm
Posted by DupontsCircle
Dupont Circle
Member since Jun 2016
5823 posts
Posted on 8/10/16 at 11:31 pm to
Also for materials we use a JOC. So individual quantities are really never an issue with construction. Wouldn't run into this issue.

With actual large scale construction projects being bid, I've never run into an issue of such small scale individual materials. If there's a problem usually it comes to discovery prior to award.
This post was edited on 8/10/16 at 11:34 pm
first pageprev pagePage 3 of 3Next pagelast page
refresh

Back to top
logoFollow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News
Follow us on X, Facebook and Instagram to get the latest updates on LSU Football and Recruiting.

FacebookXInstagram