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Started By
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re: America needs carpenters and plumbers. Gen Z doesn't seem interested
Posted on 6/14/23 at 8:23 am to dillpickleLSU
Posted on 6/14/23 at 8:23 am to dillpickleLSU
quote:
I have the homeowner pull the permit and call for inspection because homeowners are allowed to do their own work.
Going away as fast as the contractor associations can address it...does not exist in many municipalities of any size. Eventually the material will go the way of HVAC equipment where only a licensed contractor can buy any of it unless of course youre willing to pay for the material about the same amount as a contractor will install it for you.
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Posted on 6/14/23 at 8:27 am to carhartt
quote:
This is what happens when they’ve been pushing the “You have to go to College or you’ll be a failure“ BS over the last 20 years. You flood the market with graduates with useless degrees. All the while the trade industry has plenty of openings and you can damn near set your prices to charge if you’re experienced enough.
Again, you can't "set" your price. The reality is that the job is not that technical any longer. Anyone who can climb a ladder and does not need a reminder to breath is capable of doing 95% of the work any trade requires...technology has made the work incredibly simple. Troubleshooting used to be where the skill came in...today it mainly consists of pushing a button and replacing the aged component which is plug and play.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 8:27 am to Odysseus32
quote:
My point is, and I fully understand this is anecdotal, but for a lot of these unions you're fighting time, hoops, and nepotism.
I don’t know about electrician but in Shreveport you don’t have to be in the union to apprenticeship for plumbing. My son just got his journeyman’s card about a year ago. He apprenticed for about 2.5-3 years prior. I believe it is usually 4 years but his boss fudged his hours for him to help him get through it quicker. He hired on at 18 right out of high school as a helper for this plumbing outfit. Owner liked his attitude and work ethics and offered to pay his apprenticeship.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 8:34 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
The select few do much better because Unions are stifling to anyone with ambition due to wage scales and seniority.
Its great job protection for the average guy who really doesn't want to have to prove his worth.
This is true in CIO unions, it is not true in most AFL unions and is definitely not so in the AFL building trade unions. There are smaller union shops where nepotism is a problem but most union shops are publicly owned or owned by management groups which do not know one employee from another. They are as close to merit based as any company gets...I manage the employees...I know first hand there is almost no protection of un-productive employees because their co-workers won't tolerate it. If you provide a union tradesman with the tools, material and information needed to do his job and you have done your job you will find that they do a helluva lot of work and will not tolerate slacking by their brothers and sisters. Of course if you are like most contractors and think buying tools is uneccessary, you ought to be able to scrounge up material and who needs information your results will vary...but you take a look at the most successful, profitable building contractors in the US and they are managed to the nth degree....and make an incredible amount of money doing so. I ain't talking about that dude wiring houses down the street...I am talking about companies doing multiple billion dollar + projects all over the world...
Posted on 6/14/23 at 8:40 am to Kingshakabooboo
quote:
I don’t know about electrician but in Shreveport you don’t have to be in the union to apprenticeship for plumbing. My son just got his journeyman’s card about a year ago. He apprenticed for about 2.5-3 years prior. I believe it is usually 4 years but his boss fudged his hours for him to help him get through it quicker. He hired on at 18 right out of high school as a helper for this plumbing outfit. Owner liked his attitude and work ethics and offered to pay his apprenticeship.
Hopefully it works out for him. In most cases it works out a while and then the owner, who already has a drinking/drug/gambling/whore problem will find profits shrinking and will conclude it is the damned employees fault and will go out of business 30 years before your son retires...and then he will be in a position to start all over again. Were he union he would have a ticket in his wallet universally recognized as the top credential in the trade and when the contractor he is working for makes poor decisions he will go to the hall, sign the out of work list and take another referral with exactly the same wages and benefits as the one he just lost. There are exceptions of course but union tradesmen are, over all, in a better position to survive bad management decisions which plague companies whose base business model is to pay 75% of the market value for a skilled employee.....
Posted on 6/14/23 at 8:40 am to YNWA
quote:
Now we are seeing those results on farms, construction sites and restaurants....
there are more people coming across the river every day than anytime in American history. so if you actually believe this, you’re fricking retarded and shouldn’t vote
Posted on 6/14/23 at 8:41 am to AwgustaDawg
quote:
building trade unions
The only necessary unions.
They get hired out of the union hall, they system works and isn't nearly as antagonistic.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 8:42 am to tiggerthetooth
quote:
The stories about people in the trades on here are the exception and not the norm.
You are right. We should be pushing for no one ever to go into any trades because of this.
You people are morons. Yes, we need people in STEM fields but we also need trades people. Their is nothing wrong with either. OP is just saying we shouldn’t shove everyone towards college. We need trades taught in high school again and some people need to be steered toward that path.
I have examples of both. My daughter did very well in high school and went to college and is now an Occupational Therapist Assistant and makes about $50-55 a year. One year of working so far. My son who didn’t do well in school, not because he wasn’t smart, has add and hated school. He just got his journeyman’s card a year ago in plumbing. Averages 45 hrs a week. He is making $62 a year with a take home truck.
I am proud of both. Both are very happy with what they do. Daughter will likely take this bridge program and eventually be an Full Occupational Therapist and not just assistant. Would bump her up to about $70k year.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 8:43 am to RLDSC FAN
quote:
While Gen Z — often described as people born between 1997 and 2012 — is on track to become the most educated generation,
We need to stop saying people are educated when they simply stay in school the longest.
Education is about being well rounded. You won’t be educated until you know how to turn off a water main, fix a flat, negotiate a vehicle/house purchase, etc.
These kids are growing up thinking they are superior to those older than them because they spend 25-30 years getting “educated” but would be absolutely incapable of doing the things that are required to be an independent adult. Skilled trades should be naming their prices, to an extent, the best ones already are.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 8:45 am to OceanMan
quote:
We need to stop saying people are educated when they simply stay in school the longest.
Exactly.
School is the beginning of education, not the entirety. Most people considered highly educated are invested in one narrow scope of education, not overall.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 8:50 am to AwgustaDawg
quote:
You do not need to if you want to earn about 75% on average and have no benefits to speak of. The open or merit shop world is a fricking nightmare for all but a very select few.
I guess, but I dont have to pay dues or wait for some shitbag to retire.
My point wasnt to NOT join a union. Just that it isnt necessary. Its obviously up to the individuals situation on how they want to do it.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 8:51 am to Kingshakabooboo
Some people in this thread are shitting on tradesman jobs because they say you will be worn out and unemployment by age 50, but for some that is better than the alternative.
My son went to a few years of college, but just wasn't into it. He kicked around for a few years, working at a liquor store in a dead end job. He realized that he had to find something better. He got a job as an electrician helper with a large commercial non union contractor who has an in house program to become a journeyman. And at the moment is making about $1000 a week as a helper.
Here he is 4 years later about to take his journeyman test. And now he realizes that hanging conduit and pulling wire is not something he wants to do for the next 35 years so he is looking into taking classes on instrumentation, as that would be more lucrative and usually not as physically demanding.
The position he is in now is infinitely better than him working in a liquor store, with very little upward mobility.
My son went to a few years of college, but just wasn't into it. He kicked around for a few years, working at a liquor store in a dead end job. He realized that he had to find something better. He got a job as an electrician helper with a large commercial non union contractor who has an in house program to become a journeyman. And at the moment is making about $1000 a week as a helper.
Here he is 4 years later about to take his journeyman test. And now he realizes that hanging conduit and pulling wire is not something he wants to do for the next 35 years so he is looking into taking classes on instrumentation, as that would be more lucrative and usually not as physically demanding.
The position he is in now is infinitely better than him working in a liquor store, with very little upward mobility.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 8:52 am to RLDSC FAN
Northshore Tech College is right there in Lacombe. I'm thinking of going in '24 for electrical work, maybe diesel repair. Someone's gotta fix the robots that are gonna take my job eventually.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 8:59 am to doublecutter
quote:
Here he is 4 years later about to take his journeyman test. And now he realizes that hanging conduit and pulling wire is not something he wants to do for the next 35 years so he is looking into taking classes on instrumentation, as that would be more lucrative and usually not as physically demanding.
He could go into project management and estimating, he has the experience. LSU offers the courses online.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 9:00 am to RLDSC FAN
It is more about the "educators" removing these options from high schools and less about interest.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 9:01 am to Horsemeat
quote:
Northshore Tech College is right there in Lacombe. I'm thinking of going in '24 for electrical work, maybe diesel repair. Someone's gotta fix the robots that are gonna take my job eventually.
Fantastic place. Electrical instructor knows what he is doing and has real world experience to back it up.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 9:22 am to Kingshakabooboo
quote:
He just got his journeyman’s card a year ago in plumbing. Averages 45 hrs a week. He is making $62 a year with a take home truck.
Here is the problem. If he is making a salary of $65K a year for 45 hours a week work, on average, he is earning somewhere in the neighborhood of $26.32 an hour. If he had the same experience in New Orleans in 1970 he would be earning $4.85 an hour according the BLS figures, on average. That is equivalent to $38.02 an hour in 2023. While wages across the board have generally stagnated in the last 53 years and most have actually shrunk the impact on skilled tradesman has been far worse than most industries. Add to this that technology in the plumbing industry has changed dramatically since 1970 where the need for skilled labor is not nearly as high (anybody can install PEX, takes some skill to sweat copper) and it is not nearly as physically demanding (PVC drains are way lighter than cast iron or lead) the job STILL requires a person to do 90% of the work....and that person is earning about 68% of the same person in New Orleans in 1970.
That is not even considering the working conditions....while they were tough in the 1970s at least a plumber was recognized in the community as a honest, hard working person who had a skill and used it to provide for their family. Today most plumbers live about like nomadic farm hands, moving from job to job, living in a motel or an RV and spending an inordinate amount of time away from their families who they eventually lose. As folks will do in time of wont they will turn to drugs, alcohol, suffer from depression and make themselves less employable....and to top it off when they get about 45 they will realize they can't run and gun like they did at 25 and by 50 they will find it harder and harder to do the work in a manner that satisfies their employer yet they will still have 15 years or working left.
The problem ain't that young people are too lazy...its that they are not dumb enough. They see what starting wages are, what conditions are, and what top wages are down the road and realize that their body will allow them to perform at some level for about 50 years and they will then have several to go until they can retire. It is a damned tough sell....
Posted on 6/14/23 at 9:25 am to doublecutter
quote:
Here he is 4 years later about to take his journeyman test. And now he realizes that hanging conduit and pulling wire is not something he wants to do for the next 35 years so he is looking into taking classes on instrumentation, as that would be more lucrative and usually not as physically demanding.
So I manage both electricians and I&E techs. The latter's job is going to be nearly totally replaced in 10 years by technology. The trend has been negative for about 10 years and is getting infinitely worse or better depending on your perspective. It is not as physically demanding for sure, and still requires more skill and knowledge...but in 10 years 90% of it will be plug and play and done by people making 50% of what a qualified I&E tech will be making.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 9:27 am to AwgustaDawg
quote:
Today most plumbers live about like nomadic farm hands, moving from job to job, living in a motel or an RV
Posted on 6/14/23 at 9:28 am to AwgustaDawg
quote:Isnt this the area of opportunity for the non alcoholic, non drug additcted, non gambling guy? Seems he could beat this guys brains in in the market. I know that the guys that own medium sized plumbing companies and HVAC companies and they seem to be doing very well. But none of them are deviants either.
who already has a drinking/drug/gambling/whore problem will find profits shrinking and will conclude it is the damned employees fault
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