re: $9.6M "stolen" by "cheating" at casino

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I would assume they wouldn't use that particular type of card again. But it's not like it is something only Ivey could know. The advantage is right there for anyone astute enough to notice. Ivey didn't put it there. Why should he be penalized for being observant?

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Just because you are a highly skilled cheater does not give you freedom to cheat.

They were playing a game. Games have rules. One of the rules in this game is that he cant know the value of the cards. He figured out a way to learn the value of the cards unbeknownst to the other party playing the game. He broke the rules to gain an advantage and he is a cheater. It is fraud plain and simple.

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ust because you are a highly skilled cheater does not give you freedom to cheat.

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How is being observant cheating though? Noticing a manufacturer defect is not cheating.

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One of the rules in this game is that he cant know the value of the cards.

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Can you link that form the official rules? Because I'm not seeing it:

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3. The Cards

3.1 The game of Baccarat shall be played with either six decks or eight decks of cards, each deck having 52 cards without jokers, with backs of the same color and design and a cutting card.

3.2 The value of the cards shall be as follows:

3.2.1 any card from 2 to 9 inclusive shall have its face value;

3.2.2 any ten, jack, queen or king shall have a value of zero; and

3.2.3 an ace shall have a value of one.

3.3 The point count of a hand shall be:

3.3.1 where the total value of the cards in the hand is a number between 0 and 9 inclusive, that number; or

3.3.2 where the total value of the cards in the hand is the number 10 or a higher number, the right digit of that number.

3.4 Cards shall be checked by a dealer or a game supervisor prior to use on a gaming table.

3.5 Cards may be pre-shuffled and secured in a designated area until such time as they may be required.

3.6 All cards used in the game of Baccarat shall be dealt from a card shoe specifically designed for such purpose.

3.7 No player or spectator shall handle, remove or alter any cards used in the game except as expressly permitted by these rules, and no dealer or other person shall permit a player or spectator to do so.

3.8 At the completion of the last coup as determined in accordance with rules 4.9 and 4.10 the cards may, at the discretion of a game supervisor, be remov 19b ed from the table and replaced by new cards. The new cards shall be shuffled in accordance with rule 4.1.

3.9 When cards are handled by players during any shoe, all the cards from that shoe shall be replaced.

3.10 Where a casino supervisor forms the opinion that the cards have become unfit for further use and provided no coup is in progress, the casino supervisor shall direct that the cards be replaced. The new cards shall be shuffled in accordance with rule 4.1.

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As a matter of fact, the only rule that seems to have any relevance is :

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3.7 No player or spectator shall handle, remove or alter any cards used in the game except as expressly permitted by these rules, and no dealer or other person shall permit a player or spectator to do so.

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Ivey did not break this rule. Game over for you.

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Again, you are arguing about what you think is right based on the way things "should be". I am arguing based on the way things "are".

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Check my post on rules, right above. Check mate.

Here's some more rules Ivey didn't break:

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8. Dealing Methods

8.1 The game shall be conducted in accordance with one of the following methods, namely ‘Method A’, ‘Method B’ ,’Method C’, ‘Method D’ or ‘Method E’ providing that the use of either ‘Method D’ or ‘Method E’ is approved by a person exercising the functions of a Casino Duty Manager or higher and providing that ‘Method D’ or ‘Method E’ is not used on the Main Gaming Floor.
8.2 The card shoe shall be retained by the dealer except when ‘Method D’ or ‘Method E’ is in use, providing that Surveillance and an Inspector are informed prior to either ‘Method D’ or "Method E’ being used.
Method A
8.3 The dealer shall pass the cards for the Player's Hand and the Banker's Hand face downwards to the players with the highest amount wagered on the Player's Hand and the Banker's Hand respectively.
8.4 If a player with the highest amount wagered on either hand refuses to accept the cards, the cards shall be passed face downwards to the player having the next highest amount wagered on that hand.
8.5 In the event that two or more persons have made a wager on either hand which constitutes the highest amount wagered on that hand, the dealer shall first pass the cards face downwards to that player with the equal highest wager who occupies the seat nearest to the right of the dealer.
8.6 If that player refuses to accept the cards, the cards shall be passed face downwards by the dealer to the next person with the equal highest wager, moving counter clockwise around the table.
8.7 Markers denoting "Player" and "Banker" respectively shall be placed in front of the players who accept the cards on the Player's Hand and the Banker's Hand.
8.8 The cards for either the Player's Hand or the Banker's Hand shall be retained by the dealer in the event that:
8.8.1 no player has wagered on that hand; or
8.8.2 all players wagering on that hand refuse to accept the cards.
8.9 The cards for the Player's Hand and the cards for the Banker's Hand shall not be passed out at the same time. Only one set of cards, either the Player's Hand or the Banker's Ha 1a0 nd, shall be handled by the players at any one time.
Method B
8.10 The dealer shall offer a marker denoting "Banker" to the seated players, starting with the player seated to the immediate right of the dealer.
8.11 If such player rejects the offer, the dealer shall offer the marker to each of the other seated players in turn counter clockwise around the table.
8.12 By accepting the marker, the player shall be required to place a wager on the Banker's Hand and to receive the cards dealt to the Banker's Hand.
8.13 The dealer shall pass the cards for the Banker's Hand face downwards to the player accepting the marker.
8.14 The dealer shall retain the cards for the Player's Hand.
8.15 When the Banker's Hand loses, the marker shall be offered counter
clockwise around the table, starting to the immediate right of the last player accepting the marker.
8.16 A player who has accepted the marker may pass it after any coup.
8.17 In the event that no player accepts the marker, the coup shall be played in accordance with Method C.
Method C
8.18 The dealer shall retain control of the cards for both the Player's Hand and the Banker's Hand and place them in the areas designated on the table layout.
8.19 Players shall not be permitted to handle the cards when the game is conducted in accordance with Method C.
Method D
8.20 The dealer shall offer the shoe counter-clockwise commencing with the player in the lowest numbered seating position and who has placed a wager.
8.21 Should all players decline the shoe, the game shall be dealt in accordance with either ‘Method A’, ‘Method B’ or ‘Method C’.
8.22 For the purpose of dealing the cards, a player accepting the shoe:
8.22.1 acts as ‘Banker’ playing the Banker’s Hand with the dealer playing the Player’s Hand; or
8.22.2 with the prior approval of the casino supervisor, acts as ‘Player’ playing the Player’s Hand with the dealer playing the Banker’s Hand.
8.23 A player accepting the shoe shall retain control of the shoe until either the player elects to pass the shoe or the player’s wager loses or the player is directed by the casino supervisor to forfeit control of the shoe.
8.24 A player who accepts the shoe must only draw cards at the instruction of the dealer.
8.25 A casino supervisor may direct a pla 1a0 yer accepting the shoe to forfeit control of the shoe.
8.26 Marker buttons denoting ‘Player’ or ‘Banker’ shall be placed in front of the player accepting the shoe and shall denote the hand to be played by the player.
Method E
8.27 At the commencement of each round of play coup, the dealer shall offer the shoe commencing with the player with the highest amount wagered on the area of the layout designated as ‘Banker’ or ‘Player’, moving to the next highest wager should that player decline the shoe, and so on until a player accepts the shoe. Should two or more players have wagers of an equal value, the shoe shall be offered to the player in the lowest numbered seating position.
8.28 Should all players decline the shoe, the game shall be dealt in accordance with ‘Method A’, ‘Method B’ or ‘Method C’.
8.29 For the purpose of dealing the cards, a player accepting the shoe:
8.29.1 acts as ‘Banker’ playing the Banker’s Hand with the dealer playing the Player’s Hand; or
8.29.2 with the prior approval of the casino supervisor, acts as ‘Player’ playing the Player’s Hand with the dealer playing the Banker’s Hand.
8.30 A player who accepts the shoe must only draw cards at the instruction of the dealer.
8.31 A casino supervisor may direct a player accepting the shoe to forfeit control of the shoe.
8.32 Marker buttons denoting ‘Player’ or ‘Banker’ shall be placed in front of the player accepting the shoe and shall denote the hand to be played by the player.

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9. Procedure of Play

9.1 After the initial deal the dealer shall pass the cards to the players in accordance with Method A or Method B or the dealer shall collect the cards and place them in the appropriate area of the layout in accordance with Method D or Method E.
9.2 Where cards are passed to a player designated to receive them in accordance with these rules, that player may pick up the cards but must ensure that the cards:
9.2.1 remain continually in full view of everyone participating in the game; and
9.2.2 do not leave the area of the table layout nor are held away from the table.
1a2
9.3 Having checked the cards the designated player may expose the hand.
9.4 The dealer shall:
9.4.1 collect the cards and place them face upwa e8f rds on the area designated on the layout;
9.4.2 turn over any cards, including cards that are not exposed by the players in Method A, Method B, Method D or Method E;
9.4.3 announce the point count of the Player's Hand and then the point count of the Banker's Hand.

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Wow...so I assume that you are posting from the car, on your way to Vegas, now that you have proven that it is not against the rules to keep hidden the value of all downturned cards and cards within the shoe. Good luck with that, Champ.

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No, but I'll assume you'll say some trivial bullshite since you just got made a fool of. Like I said,

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Checkmate because what you posted doesn't explicitly state the reason for the cards being turned facedown. Every idiot knows that...well, almost every idiot apparently.

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I'm pretty sure a court of law would only factor in the expressed rules, of which Ivey broke none. Especially this one:

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3.7 No player or spectator shall handle, remove or alter any cards used in the game except as expressly permitted by these rules, and no dealer or other person shall permit a player or spectator to do so.

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It's OK. I'd be calling people idiots too if my argument fell to shite.

Lets compare this to the Billy Walters scenario:

You determine a certain roulette wheel at a casino hits about five numbers more often normal. You play those numbers and make lots of money (millions) over a weekend.

Is that cheating? Should you not get to keep the winnings?

I don't see how that is different than Ivey. The fact that the casino AGREED to special conditions is irrelevant