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Started By
Message
1
Posted on 4/1/17 at 1:13 am to Rand AlThor
quote:
No, sorry, I'm staying out of this one
But man. Taco ain't bending enough!!!
That's not the bend you look for! He needs to be at the tackle's waist! Now that's some bend!
Bonethug:
Taco's dip is fine. He's bending the edge fine. Ain't nothing wrong with the way he bends the edge.
You see this big arse hula hoop drill? That's how you learn how to dip. You dip to gain leverage on the offensive lineman. It enables you to bend the edge.
LINK
This post was edited on 4/1/17 at 1:20 am
Posted on 4/1/17 at 1:19 am to rmnldr
Okay so we are talking about completely different kinds of bend.
You just mean the angle you take to the QB.
But there is a literal bend and Barnett has that. It's bending your shoulder below the tackle's chest or waist.
Everytime you hear someone talking about Barnett's bend they mean his literal bend. Very few player's have that and it is deadly if you can then bend the angle (the bend you are talking about) to the QB.
I actually think Barnett needs to work on his angle to the QB after he bends below the tackle. One of his bends is definitely better than the other.
You just mean the angle you take to the QB.
But there is a literal bend and Barnett has that. It's bending your shoulder below the tackle's chest or waist.
Everytime you hear someone talking about Barnett's bend they mean his literal bend. Very few player's have that and it is deadly if you can then bend the angle (the bend you are talking about) to the QB.
I actually think Barnett needs to work on his angle to the QB after he bends below the tackle. One of his bends is definitely better than the other.
This post was edited on 4/1/17 at 1:20 am
Posted on 4/1/17 at 1:21 am to bonethug0108
quote:
Okay so we are talking about completely different kinds of bend.
No we ain't
quote:
You just mean the angle you take to the QB.
No I mean his dip
quote:
Everytime you hear someone talking about Barnett's bend they mean his literal bend. Very few player's have that and it is deadly if you can then bend the angle (the bend you are talking about) to the QB.
No. When they say that Derek Barnett can bend the edge they mean that he comes off the ball quick and speed rushes the outside shoulder of the offensive lineman low and with leverage (dip).
quote:
I actually think Barnett needs to work on his angle to the QB after he bends below the tackle. One of his bends is definitely better than the other.
Barnett doesn't need to work on anything involving bending the edge. That's the one thing he's perfect on.
Posted on 4/1/17 at 1:21 am to rmnldr
quote:
That's not the bend you look for! He needs to be at the tackle's waist! Now that's some bend!
If you watch Barnett he does literally bend below the tackle's waist quite often.
So yes that is some bend.
This post was edited on 4/1/17 at 1:22 am
Posted on 4/1/17 at 1:23 am to bonethug0108
quote:
If you watch Barnett he does literally bend below the tackle's waist quite often.
He leans/dips low.
quote:
So yes that is some bend.
No. That's some great leaning/dipping.
Now show me where Taco gets his arse whooped. I'm dying to see it.
Posted on 4/1/17 at 1:32 am to rmnldr
I got two singled up and two doubled.
I could go back through and list all the stonewalls and washouts if you really want.
Let's not forget his stats were two assisted tackles (where he was the second man in iirc) and half a sack (where he was definitely the second man in coming from the right side).
He had maybe 3 pressures on top of that.
And whether you call it dip or bend it's still literally the same thing. You are dipping/bending your body below the tackle to get under him.
You are arguing semantics at this point.
LINK
And when they are talking about his bend they are talking about what you are calling his dip.
If you watch/read his weaknesses they say he needs to take a winning angle more often.
He is not great at what you are calling bend. He's only decent at this point.
Hell if he had better bend/angle to the QB he would have had a shite TON more sacks.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen him beat the tackle but not have the angle to the QB and he either got washed out or the QB stepped up.
I could go back through and list all the stonewalls and washouts if you really want.
Let's not forget his stats were two assisted tackles (where he was the second man in iirc) and half a sack (where he was definitely the second man in coming from the right side).
He had maybe 3 pressures on top of that.
And whether you call it dip or bend it's still literally the same thing. You are dipping/bending your body below the tackle to get under him.
You are arguing semantics at this point.
LINK
quote:
Main Entry: dip
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: lower, descend
Synonyms: bend, decline, disappear, droop, drop down, fade, fall, go down, incline, nose-dive, plummet, plunge, reach, recede, sag, set, settle, sheer, sink, skew, skid, slant, slip, slope, slue, slump, spiral, subside, swoop, tilt, tumble, veer, verge
And when they are talking about his bend they are talking about what you are calling his dip.
If you watch/read his weaknesses they say he needs to take a winning angle more often.
He is not great at what you are calling bend. He's only decent at this point.
Hell if he had better bend/angle to the QB he would have had a shite TON more sacks.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen him beat the tackle but not have the angle to the QB and he either got washed out or the QB stepped up.
This post was edited on 4/1/17 at 1:35 am
Posted on 4/1/17 at 1:37 am to bonethug0108
quote:
I got two singled up and two doubled.
Links
quote:
You are arguing semantics at this point.
I'm not brah. Just trying to use the right football terminology so we all understand what's going on here.
quote:
If you watch/read his weaknesses they say he needs to take a winning angle more often.
Yes. This ties back into my whole problem with him being a one trick pony. All he does is speed rush outside, get washed out, and grab his dick.
You have to get around the corner and get flat to track the QB down. Very few prospects come out with that.
quote:
Hell if he had better bend/angle to the QB he would have had a shite TON more sacks.
Probably. It'd also help if he used literally any pass rushing move instead of just trying to run around the tackle.
quote:
I can't tell you how many times I've seen him beat the tackle but not have the angle to the QB and he either got washed out or the QB stepped up.
And this is the crux of why I don't like him. He's fallen in love with this style of pass rush. Getting him out of it won't be easy. In the NFL he's going to have this happen to him all the time because he lacks the power to flatten his trajectory and doesn't feel the need to ever use a counter move to ever go back inside.
As I said like 3-4 pages back. There's the Derek Barnett everyone has fallen in love with that runs around the tackle. There's the Derek Barnett I want to see more of who actually uses pass rushing moves in combination with his speed. And lastly, the Derek Barnett who will get washed out every play in the NFL.
quote:
This is who they think Derek Barnett is
This is a BAD tackle. Real bad. If he goes completely untouched, sure, he'll get a sack.
This is the Derek Barnett that I like
If he tried this little budding spin move more often, I'd like him more. He barely ever does it. It's not a nice crisp spin move with leverage but it's something.
This is NFL Derek Barnett
And lastly, that's Derek Barnett when a tackle gets their hands on him.
This post was edited on 4/1/17 at 1:40 am
Posted on 4/1/17 at 1:41 am to rmnldr
You literally just argued that everyone says he has a great bend meaning his angle to the QB (and you agreed), I correct you, and now you are arguing like you knew all along that his angle needs work when you literally never brought that up about him before I mentioned it.
Hilarious.
Also the links are on the last page where I said I'd edit the post.
But you know you can just watch the whole video and see for yourself.
Hilarious.
Also the links are on the last page where I said I'd edit the post.
But you know you can just watch the whole video and see for yourself.
Posted on 4/1/17 at 1:42 am to bonethug0108
You:
You after I corrected you:
You literally, a few posts apart, claimed he had perfect bend/angle to the QB and then 180ed and said it's the crux of why you don't like him.
You are so full of shite about everything.
quote:
Barnett doesn't need to work on anything involving bending the edge. That's the one thing he's perfect on.
You after I corrected you:
quote:
And this is the crux of why I don't like him. He's fallen in love with this style of pass rush. Getting him out of it won't be easy. In the NFL he's going to have this happen to him all the time because he lacks the power to flatten his trajectory and doesn't feel the need to ever use a counter move to ever go back inside.
You literally, a few posts apart, claimed he had perfect bend/angle to the QB and then 180ed and said it's the crux of why you don't like him.
You are so full of shite about everything.
This post was edited on 4/1/17 at 1:44 am
Posted on 4/1/17 at 1:42 am to bonethug0108
quote:
You literally just argued that everyone says he has a great bend meaning his angle to the QB (and you agreed), I correct you, and now you are arguing like you knew all along that his angle needs work when you literally never brought that up about him before I mentioned it.
Who? Taco or Barnett? I'm not following.
quote:
You:
Yes. He bends the edge fine.
Getting to the QB is a completely different game.
You gotta get in the front door first.
ETA: still can't find these links where Taco is getting shoved back
quote:
You literally, a few posts apart, claimed he had perfect bend/angle to the QB and then 180ed and said it's the crux of why you don't like him.
You are so full of shite about everything.
You can't read or don't understand football.
He bends the edge fine. He gets around the tackle fine. The problem comes when he's parallel to the QB and still engaged with the tackle. If he continues shooting downfield he's going to go right past the QB. That's where Derek needs work. That's where he starts holding his dick.
I don't get what you don't get, man.
I seriously don't think you understand DL play at all.
This post was edited on 4/1/17 at 1:47 am
Posted on 4/1/17 at 1:46 am to rmnldr
Will edit in.
First time getting pushed back (and to the ground to boot) was about 37-38 seconds in. It was a double team but then was pushed down by one guy after the other disengaged.
Very next play he was pushed back by a double team again (these were early in the video which is why I likely forgot they were on doubles).
His half sack came against the RT (not Ramczyk) and he was the second player to the QB. That was around 2:20?
3:40 pushed back one on one by a FB.
4:05ish pushed back one on one by a HB or FB.
4:20 easily cut block by a HB.
Btw, this isn't even all the times he just got stonewalled against the run or pass rush.
The link is the Wisconsin game YOU posted.
First time getting pushed back (and to the ground to boot) was about 37-38 seconds in. It was a double team but then was pushed down by one guy after the other disengaged.
Very next play he was pushed back by a double team again (these were early in the video which is why I likely forgot they were on doubles).
His half sack came against the RT (not Ramczyk) and he was the second player to the QB. That was around 2:20?
3:40 pushed back one on one by a FB.
4:05ish pushed back one on one by a HB or FB.
4:20 easily cut block by a HB.
Btw, this isn't even all the times he just got stonewalled against the run or pass rush.
The link is the Wisconsin game YOU posted.
Posted on 4/1/17 at 1:50 am to rmnldr
Bending the edge is how you take your angle to the QB. So you say in one breath he can bend the edge and then in the next he isn't taking the proper angle to the QB.
If he isn't taking the right angle he is NOT bending the edge properly.
I don't think you know what you are talking about.
And then you claim he smoked Ramczyk yet finished with half a sack that wasn't against him. Ramczyk was stonewalling and washing him out so much they had to keep putting him over the RT instead.
If he isn't taking the right angle he is NOT bending the edge properly.
I don't think you know what you are talking about.
And then you claim he smoked Ramczyk yet finished with half a sack that wasn't against him. Ramczyk was stonewalling and washing him out so much they had to keep putting him over the RT instead.
Posted on 4/1/17 at 1:53 am to bonethug0108
quote:
First time getting pushed back (and to the ground to boot) was about 37-38 seconds in. It was a double team but then was pushed down by one guy after the other disengaged.
Not worried about this.
quote:
Very next play he was pushed back by a double team again (these were early in the video which is why I likely forgot they were on doubles).
Also not worried. Held his own.
quote:
His half sack came against the RT (not Ramczyk) and he was the second player to the QB. That was around 2:20?
I only care if he shows the right traits. It doesn't matter if he got the sack or not.
quote:
3:40 pushed back one on one by a FB.
FB had a running start and got under his pads. Taco easily anchored and shed him. Not worried.
quote:
4:05ish pushed back one on one by a HB or FB.
Taco gets hit from the side by a chip block and completely takes himself out of the play because of over pursuit. They teach you that if you're not blocked on a run play that you're about to be a part of the problem. This is where you "stay at home". He'll get that coached out. Not worried.
quote:
4:20 easily cut block by a HB.
c'mon man quote:
Btw, this isn't even all the times he just got stonewalled against the run or pass rush.
The link is the Wisconsin game YOU posted.
Bruh if this is the shite you're using to say he's getting beat back...
None of this is even bad. This is just normal football plays. Jonathan Allen and Myles Garrett have this happen to them too. No one can avoid it. There's only one guy I've seen in this draft who can anchor and beat a double team and that's Malik McDowell. Malik also has these type of plays.
My opinion of your football knowledge is going down the drain dude.
quote:
Bending the edge is how you take your angle to the QB. So you say in one breath he can bend the edge and then in the next he isn't taking the proper angle to the QB.
"Bending the edge" is not about the angle you take. Bending the edge means getting around the tackle and forcing him to peel off to block you.
quote:
If he isn't taking the right angle he is NOT bending the edge properly.
Bruh. What the frick are you talking about with this angle shite? You're not making any sense
quote:
I don't think you know what you are talking about.
quote:
And then you claim he smoked Ramczyk yet finished with half a sack that wasn't against him. Ramczyk was stonewalling and washing him out so much they had to keep putting him over the RT instead.
I don't even know what to say at this point.
And FWIW they move Taco between LT and RT all the time. They even have him at 0 tech sometimes.
Just stop trying to evaluate players, man. You don't understand football at all.
ETA: I'm going to draw up a diagram to help you. 1 sec
This post was edited on 4/1/17 at 1:59 am
Posted on 4/1/17 at 2:00 am to bonethug0108
LINK
Some terms relating to edge rushers.
Bend the edge:
Bend:
Both needed to be great:
He has one but needs to work on the other.
EVERYONE calls it bend. Not sure why you are arguing it's only called dip. Dip is used less than bend.
And that's the difference between bending the edge (what you are talking about and people use the WHOLE term when talking about it) and bend.
Some terms relating to edge rushers.
Bend the edge:
quote:
Flexibility, bend, "leverage"
Of course, exploding up and out of a stance is a key variable, but this isn't a linear game. If an edge rusher cannot "bend" the edge and move laterally toward the quarterback, tackles will quickly learn to simply run that end upfield and out of the play.
Bend:
quote:
You'll hear scouts talk about bend, which relates some to ankle and knee flexion or flexibility. They're referring to an edge rusher's ability to get low and change direction quickly. Can a rusher dip his shoulders and turn his hips while maintaining balance and full foot contact and traction with the turf? The lower and more parallel to the turf a player can get while maintaining full control, the more leverage he'll be able to generate, and the more power he'll display.
Both needed to be great:
quote:
The ability to bend around the corner with excellent flexibility and balance is what separates the greats from the guys who will get past the offensive tackle but then get run right out of the pocket and the play.
He has one but needs to work on the other.
EVERYONE calls it bend. Not sure why you are arguing it's only called dip. Dip is used less than bend.
And that's the difference between bending the edge (what you are talking about and people use the WHOLE term when talking about it) and bend.
Posted on 4/1/17 at 2:02 am to rmnldr
Your bending:
Is contradicted by the actual meaning:
Yet you claim I don't know what the frick I'm talking about.
And you never even heard the term bend used to describe "dip" even though bend is the main term used.
Quit playing little scout boy. You are out of your depth.
Edit:
And you actually contradcit your own meaning of bending the edge saying it's not about the angle you take and then saying it's about how you get around the tackle (or, you know, the angle you take).
quote:
"Bending the edge" is not about the angle you take. Bending the edge means getting around the tackle and forcing him to peel off to block you.
Is contradicted by the actual meaning:
quote:
If an edge rusher cannot "bend" the edge and move laterally toward the quarterbac
Yet you claim I don't know what the frick I'm talking about.
And you never even heard the term bend used to describe "dip" even though bend is the main term used.
Quit playing little scout boy. You are out of your depth.
Edit:
And you actually contradcit your own meaning of bending the edge saying it's not about the angle you take and then saying it's about how you get around the tackle (or, you know, the angle you take).
This post was edited on 4/1/17 at 2:07 am
Posted on 4/1/17 at 2:06 am to bonethug0108
quote:
And that's the difference between bending the edge (what you are talking about and people use the WHOLE term when talking about it) and bend.
No there isn't. They're always talking about the buzzword. It's not literal. You need great ankle flexion and flexibility to dip to round the corner with leverage. Just drop the semantics. Not one coach will agree with what you're saying.
Now look at the diagram:
You bend the edge of the OL when you come around the OL. When the tackle has to peel off to block you, you're bending the edge. If the tackle carries you all the way around and can wash you out, you've failed.
If you can't get around the tackle to get the QB you have to stop and either use power or a pass rush move to flatten off and track the QB. Not one coach will ever teach a DE to keep going and try to get the QB from behind.
This area is where Barnett needs to work on. He's got the whole "bend the edge" and get around the tackle part down but he doesn't either understand or possess the knowledge of how to sack the QB when he's being washed out.
quote:
Yet you claim I don't know what the frick I'm talking about.
And you never even heard the term bend used to describe "dip" even though bend is the main term used.
Quit playing little scout boy. You are out of your depth.
You're seriously retarded dude. Lean/dip is the same exact meaning. "Bending" means to bend the OL away from facing forward. I just don't know what you don't fricking get after I've explained it like 8 times.
quote:
You are out of your depth.
This is the funniest part of this whole discussion/argument.
You don't understand football AT ALL and have obviously never been coached to play the game yet act like I'm clueless.
This post was edited on 4/1/17 at 2:12 am
Posted on 4/1/17 at 10:19 am to Rand AlThor
quote:
You are the biggest fricking idiot on this board, please do us all a favor and stop posting, you contribute nothing but regurgitated media garbage, you don't understand football at all
Says the guy who can only repeat shite he hears from Daniel Jeremiah. You are a frickin joke. You think you know it all but really don't know shite.
Posted on 4/1/17 at 10:38 am to bonethug0108
quote:
And it's crazy to judge him on two workouts not at his best. But even not at his best that isn't a terrible 40.
well i still have questions about him. Im starting to question if he was indeed sick or he indeed had a hamstring injury going into his pro day, and if these were just excuses for what he knew would be slow times. Who is advising this kid to keep working out under these situations? I dont think that is "tough" i think that is stupid.
Im worried about his size. at 260 he needs to move better. He should be more explosive. Watching him run yesterday, he has a stiff lower body that a 260 edge player shouldnt have. A 300lb DL, yea. a 259 edge guy that wants to be a top 10 pick, no.
I want to believe his tape, and his 3 cone. That is literally all he has going for him right now.
Posted on 4/1/17 at 10:50 am to Lester Earl
Well most teams look at the tape first and foremost, and then use the combine to look for red flags.
While his 40 isn't what you want, it isn't a red flag 40.
And he had obvious problems at his pro day with his hammy. His coach said he'd been dealing with it for two weeks but wanted to try the 40 again to show he can run 4.7. He pulled up at the end of his first run and decided not to try again because he tweaked it a bit more.
The rest of the day he would do his drill and then limp off before it was time to do another. He wasn't faking the hammy.
As for the illness, I can't speak to that.
And as for if he can run a 4.7, I think if he got a good start he could, but I think his consistent range would probably be between 4.8-4.85.
But when you watch the tape his first two steps are explosive and the 40 doesn't really come into play with his style. It will definitely affect his ability to chase QBs and HBs running outside, but not his every down rush.
And yes in a straight line he does run stiff but you're hoping not to ask him to run 20+ yards in a straight line during games (if you are you have problems elsewhere).
But that does not mean he is a stiff or unathletic player. When you watch the tape he can bend super low under the tackle to take the edge. It does affect his spin move to a degree, but technique was the bigger issue there.
While his 40 isn't what you want, it isn't a red flag 40.
And he had obvious problems at his pro day with his hammy. His coach said he'd been dealing with it for two weeks but wanted to try the 40 again to show he can run 4.7. He pulled up at the end of his first run and decided not to try again because he tweaked it a bit more.
The rest of the day he would do his drill and then limp off before it was time to do another. He wasn't faking the hammy.
As for the illness, I can't speak to that.
And as for if he can run a 4.7, I think if he got a good start he could, but I think his consistent range would probably be between 4.8-4.85.
But when you watch the tape his first two steps are explosive and the 40 doesn't really come into play with his style. It will definitely affect his ability to chase QBs and HBs running outside, but not his every down rush.
And yes in a straight line he does run stiff but you're hoping not to ask him to run 20+ yards in a straight line during games (if you are you have problems elsewhere).
But that does not mean he is a stiff or unathletic player. When you watch the tape he can bend super low under the tackle to take the edge. It does affect his spin move to a degree, but technique was the bigger issue there.
This post was edited on 4/1/17 at 10:52 am
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