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Started By
Message
re: Watching Midway tonight….(the newer one).
Posted on 12/7/24 at 8:16 pm to themetalreb
Posted on 12/7/24 at 8:16 pm to themetalreb
YouTube: Battlefield S1/E3 - The Battle of Midway....is a fantastic documentary that explains everything.
It's the greatest upset in Naval warfare history.
“The most stunning and decisive blow in the history of naval warfare”
— John Keegan, Miltary Historian
“They had no right to win. Yet they did, and in doing
so they changed the course of a war. More than that, they
added a new name – Midway – to that small list that inspires
men by example, like Marathon, the Armada, the Marne.
Even against the greatest odds, there is something in the
human spirit – a magic blend of skill, faith and valor – that
can lift men from certain defeat to incredible victory."
It's the greatest upset in Naval warfare history.
“The most stunning and decisive blow in the history of naval warfare”
— John Keegan, Miltary Historian
“They had no right to win. Yet they did, and in doing
so they changed the course of a war. More than that, they
added a new name – Midway – to that small list that inspires
men by example, like Marathon, the Armada, the Marne.
Even against the greatest odds, there is something in the
human spirit – a magic blend of skill, faith and valor – that
can lift men from certain defeat to incredible victory."
1
Posted on 12/7/24 at 8:41 pm to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
quote:
It's the greatest upset in Naval warfare history.
“The most stunning and decisive blow in the history of naval warfare”
— John Keegan, Miltary Historian
Ummmmmmm, no. Japanese advantage in total aircraft available wasn't that lopsided (one could argue at this stage of the war they had an advantage in fighter quality). The US had an advantage in Intel, radar, damage control and, most importantly, an unsinkable aircraft carrier in Midway Island.
The outcome of Midway is overblown, also. There was no way Japan was ever going to be successful in the Pacific War against the US. Even if they had won Midway, America was going to replace any sunk flattops in a matter of months. Japan wasn't going to be able to sustain any gains at Midway (invading Hawaii, much less the mainland US was a pipe dream).
Yes, the American victory was inspirational and heroic. But, it wasn't a massive upset, nor was it a "turning point". The true turning point was Guadalcanal.
Posted on 12/7/24 at 9:11 pm to SoFla Tideroller
quote:
one could argue at this stage of the war they had an advantage in fighter quality)
Um....yeah.
Watch the documentary. The Japanese had EVERY advantage but intel....we scuttled a Navy offense after Pearl....and fought Midway with training wheels on.....some pilots had a month of training.
Almost every airplane sent to torpedo the great Japanese aircraft carriers got shot down by Zeros or missed the target completely.....And the victory was overblown? Japan wanted, needed and planned for a Midway victory to bring us to the negotiation armistice table....it broke the Camel's back right out the gate....Japan held out for a few years but it was over....we destroyed their Navy.....which was called the greatest Navy in the world.
This post was edited on 12/7/24 at 9:14 pm
Posted on 12/7/24 at 9:25 pm to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
I don't care what Japan wanted. A victory at Midway wasn't ending the war or bringing America to the negotiating table. Their whole doctrine of "Kantai Kessem" was deeply flawed, if not outright idiotic.
I'm not saying that the IJN didn't have advantages at Midway. I'm saying it wasn't nearly the David vs Goliath confrontation it has been portrayed.
I'm not saying that the IJN didn't have advantages at Midway. I'm saying it wasn't nearly the David vs Goliath confrontation it has been portrayed.
Posted on 12/7/24 at 11:38 pm to SoFla Tideroller
The Zeros tore our fighter pilots apart....even though we knew their plan.
We hit a few brave and lucky bombs that sunk their fleet.....as they became uncharacteristically disorganized due to the surprise "shock and awe" so to speak that we weren't falling into their planned trap.
We still hadn't gotten our legs under us after Pearl Harbor....
We had training wheels on heading into Midway, facing elite vastly superior trained pilots.....yet we still won and not only won but basically destroyed their Navy. After Midway,, Japan retreated and dug in.
We hit a few brave and lucky bombs that sunk their fleet.....as they became uncharacteristically disorganized due to the surprise "shock and awe" so to speak that we weren't falling into their planned trap.
We still hadn't gotten our legs under us after Pearl Harbor....
We had training wheels on heading into Midway, facing elite vastly superior trained pilots.....yet we still won and not only won but basically destroyed their Navy. After Midway,, Japan retreated and dug in.
Posted on 12/8/24 at 12:25 am to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
quote:
facing elite vastly superior trained pilots
Every time we killed a bunch was big
Posted on 12/8/24 at 1:11 am to themetalreb
I never watched it either. I think because it came out around 1917 and Dunkirk and was regarded as the 3rd best of the 3. Will check it out tho OP
Posted on 12/8/24 at 9:08 am to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
quote:
but basically destroyed their Navy
Not true. The Japanese still had lots of hitting power left, as Santa Cruz, Eastern Solomons, Savo Island, etc demonstrated.
It was the long drawn out Guadalcanal/Solomons naval campaign that wrecked and attrited the Japanese naval and land based airpower.
Posted on 12/8/24 at 10:06 am to SoFla Tideroller
The Japanese carriers were poorly designed. Two of the three that were sunk were converted battleships. The strength of the Japanese military technology was limited, and quickly surpassed by the U.S.
Posted on 12/8/24 at 10:41 am to Locoguan0
Lexington and Saratoga were converted battlecruisers as a result of the interwar naval treaties. But, yeah, US Navy DC doctrine, training and equipment were way ahead of the Japanese - and got better as the war progressed.
Another area that evened up Midway that people overlook was AA fire. Even this early in the war, American shipborne flack was pretty potent. The 5"/38 dual purpose gun was simply the best destroyer and AA gun of the war. It caused some serious attrition on Japanese strike packages. (By wars end, it was devastating) Even with the advantages the Zero gave the IJN in mid '42, their strike aircraft got bloodied pretty good by flak. This reduced their ability to mount as heavy follow-up strikes as the Americans.
By contrast, Japanese flak didn't pack the same punch. Their doctrine of the use of their escorts was different and didn't emphasize AA support as much as the USN. The escorts' 5" guns weren't truly dual purpose in the way the 5"/38s were for the Americans. The 25mm AA guns weren't up to the task both in range or knockdown power.
One last thing that evened the odds since we've pretty much derailed the movie discussion: search aircraft and search doctrine. The PBY Catalina gave the US a yuuuuge advantage in locating the Japs. Also, the US used strike aircraft as well as catapult planes. We simply had more eyes on the water than the IJN.
Great victory, but it wasn't the David and Goliath confrontation it was painted as by the USN.
Another area that evened up Midway that people overlook was AA fire. Even this early in the war, American shipborne flack was pretty potent. The 5"/38 dual purpose gun was simply the best destroyer and AA gun of the war. It caused some serious attrition on Japanese strike packages. (By wars end, it was devastating) Even with the advantages the Zero gave the IJN in mid '42, their strike aircraft got bloodied pretty good by flak. This reduced their ability to mount as heavy follow-up strikes as the Americans.
By contrast, Japanese flak didn't pack the same punch. Their doctrine of the use of their escorts was different and didn't emphasize AA support as much as the USN. The escorts' 5" guns weren't truly dual purpose in the way the 5"/38s were for the Americans. The 25mm AA guns weren't up to the task both in range or knockdown power.
One last thing that evened the odds since we've pretty much derailed the movie discussion: search aircraft and search doctrine. The PBY Catalina gave the US a yuuuuge advantage in locating the Japs. Also, the US used strike aircraft as well as catapult planes. We simply had more eyes on the water than the IJN.
Great victory, but it wasn't the David and Goliath confrontation it was painted as by the USN.
Posted on 12/9/24 at 10:39 pm to themetalreb
Saw this thread the other night, so I put it on my list.
Kept waiting to like it, but I thought it was bad. Crowded, pandering, telegraphed story. Add in the ham-fisted dialogue by over-actors with bad accents.
That generation makes me feel like a total puss, though.
Kept waiting to like it, but I thought it was bad. Crowded, pandering, telegraphed story. Add in the ham-fisted dialogue by over-actors with bad accents.
That generation makes me feel like a total puss, though.
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