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Message
re: Making a Murderer - Part 2
Posted on 10/31/18 at 1:22 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
Posted on 10/31/18 at 1:22 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
DisplacedBuckeye
jesus dude. You're another one of those dumbfricks who watched the first season and wont hear anything else besides innocence. Dont be one of those simple people bro.
1
Posted on 10/31/18 at 1:24 pm to CajunTiger_225
I think Avery is probably guilty. I also think he should get a new trial. Most of my interest is in the fricky investigation and prosecution of these two cases. Try again.
Posted on 10/31/18 at 1:28 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
That doesn't mean they proved their case.
Well, it does mean they proved their case to 12 people.
quote:
They were able to convince 12 people to return a guilty verdict.
Normally you make julienne fries out of someone else who tries that.
No, they haven't proven their case to everyone, obviously. But they proved it to the 12 people that mattered, when it mattered.
You can assert those 12 folks were wrong. I've been sympathetic to Dassey, particularly the way his original lawyer and that lawyer's investigator straight up fricked him.
But the assertion they didn't prove the case doesn't hold water with me. None of us was shown, in its entirety, the evidence presented to the trial jury, particularly the Avery trial jury.
Posted on 10/31/18 at 1:31 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
Yeah could have fooled me. Why should he get a new trial to potentially free a murderer? It's not the prosecution fault this Avery guy is stupid as all hell and had a mountain of evidence all around his house
Posted on 10/31/18 at 1:40 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Well, it does mean they proved their case to 12 people.
Correct, but 12 people aren't the end all be all in our system.
quote:
Normally you make julienne fries out of someone else who tries that.
Incorrect. I made a factual statement. I'm a fan of those.
quote:
But the assertion they didn't prove the case doesn't hold water with me.
That's fine. You're allowed to disagree.
quote:
None of us was shown, in its entirety, the evidence presented to the trial jury, particularly the Avery trial jury.
I don't even know why I spend my time making points. You do all the work for me.
Posted on 10/31/18 at 1:42 pm to CajunTiger_225
quote:
Yeah could have fooled me.
That doesn't mean anything.
quote:
Why should he get a new trial to potentially free a murderer?
Seriously? You have some catching up to do. I'm not starting at day one with you.
quote:
It's not the prosecution fault this Avery guy is stupid as all hell and had a mountain of evidence all around his house
No, it isn't. That's also completely irrelevant.
Posted on 10/31/18 at 1:47 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
Incorrect. I made a factual statement. I'm a fan of those.
Well, you said they didn't prove their case.
But, they obviously proved the case sufficiently to trial juries and multiple appellate courts.
So, I'll concede "factual" (for what it is worth), but certainly incomplete and arguably misleading.
A better statement is that you don't believe they proved their case to you or the Avery/Dassey backers. In other words, they didn't prove it to folks who don't matter in the process and they did to those folks who do.
I'm a big fan of practicality in legal matters, not how advocacy can color one's evaluation of the evidence. I've been an advocate and I know the danger of such coloration.
This post was edited on 10/31/18 at 1:47 pm
Posted on 10/31/18 at 1:55 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Well, you said they didn't prove their case.
They didn't. If they had, we aren't even talking about it right now.
quote:
But, they obviously proved the case sufficiently to trial juries and multiple appellate courts.
Those are qualifiers.
quote:
A better statement is that you don't believe they proved their case to you or the Avery/Dassey backers. In other words, they didn't prove it to folks who don't matter in the process and they did to those folks who do.
No, a better statement is that they didn't prove their case. Period. Take that how you want to take it, but that's the way it is.
Posted on 10/31/18 at 1:59 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
Take that how you want to take it, but that's the way it is.
And yet, as someone else noted, Avery and Dassey are still incarcerated. I'm not saying that's the only thing that matters in this discussion, but that's the best evidence that - to this point - the prosecution has proven their case MORE than the defense has established innocence. And with the heaviest burden of proof we require.
Posted on 10/31/18 at 2:04 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
And yet, as someone else noted, Avery and Dassey are still incarcerated. I'm not saying that's the only thing that matters in this discussion, but that's the best evidence that - to this point - the prosecution has proven their case MORE than the defense has established innocence.
That's evidence that they are still incarcerated. Nothing more and nothing less.
Dassey was ordered released. Three times, I believe. The state won their argument in appeal with a 4-3 vote. You know, by people that actually do matter here. I'd say that's anything but absolute...
quote:
And with the heaviest burden of proof we require.
That would be a different tangent, and something I'd strongly disagree with in these cases, particularly Dassey's.
Posted on 10/31/18 at 2:24 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
I've gone over it a bunch of times. Plain and simple you want a re trial because the documentary told you that you do. There is overwhelming circumstances and evidence where there's no doubt he's guilty that most would never have questioned if it wasn't for this documentary that uses exploitation tactics.
Posted on 10/31/18 at 2:28 pm to CajunTiger_225
quote:
documentary told you that you do
This is something people say when they don't really have a rebuttal. I've been discussing this case for several years. Funny that I don't remember ever seeing you do so. Welcome to Making A Murderer.
Posted on 10/31/18 at 2:41 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
Oh is it? That's typically something people say about what people say when they dont know what to say. Get real.
You wont even admit that the documentary is trying to angle him as innocent which is a major issue.
I'm pretty sure me and you were going back and forth on this when season one first came out.
You wont even admit that the documentary is trying to angle him as innocent which is a major issue.
quote:
Funny that I don't remember ever seeing you do so
I'm pretty sure me and you were going back and forth on this when season one first came out.
Posted on 10/31/18 at 2:50 pm to CajunTiger_225
quote:
Oh is it?
Yes.
quote:
You wont even admit that the documentary is trying to angle him as innocent which is a major issue.
I've never said or even implied this. The documentary is very clearly biased in favor of Avery. What is the "major issue" with that?
quote:
I'm pretty sure me and you were going back and forth on this when season one first came out.
I'd very much doubt that. Here is the original thread. I don't see you in there. Was it one of your alters, by chance?
Posted on 10/31/18 at 2:50 pm to CajunTiger_225
After Part 1 I was about 95% sure Avery and Dassey were guilty and was completely content with them staying in jail.
After Part 2 that confidence level goes way down. The FL bullet itself should get Avery a new trial. It was a bullet fired from outside the garage into the garage and didn't touch Theresa Halbach's skull at all. It definitely wasn't the bullet that killed Theresa Halbach assuming the medical examiner's finding that the GSWs to the head killed her is correct (which we have to assume it is). Also based on that knowledge of the bullet and the way they got Dassey to admit that "something" happened in the trailer then his confession has to be reconsidered based on that new evidence.
I think at very least Avery will get a new trial....if he gets off Dassey's lawyers will start to raise hell again.
After Part 2 that confidence level goes way down. The FL bullet itself should get Avery a new trial. It was a bullet fired from outside the garage into the garage and didn't touch Theresa Halbach's skull at all. It definitely wasn't the bullet that killed Theresa Halbach assuming the medical examiner's finding that the GSWs to the head killed her is correct (which we have to assume it is). Also based on that knowledge of the bullet and the way they got Dassey to admit that "something" happened in the trailer then his confession has to be reconsidered based on that new evidence.
I think at very least Avery will get a new trial....if he gets off Dassey's lawyers will start to raise hell again.
Posted on 10/31/18 at 3:12 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
They didn't. If they had, we aren't even talking about it right now.
Did the prosecutor prove Charles Manson’s case? People still talk about that case. The fact that a portion of society that has not seen all the evidence doesn’t believe someone committed a crime doesn’t mean the prosecution didn’t prove their case. If that’s the definition of “proving a case” then no prosecutor has ever proven a case.
Posted on 10/31/18 at 3:16 pm to LSU316
I’ve seen several people discuss the lack of bone fragment on the bullet, and I’m sure this is addressed in the documentary, but is it inconceivable that a bullet that travels through a human skull would have no bone fragment on it? I honestly don’t know.
Posted on 10/31/18 at 4:10 pm to UpToPar
Nice straw man. Try it on someone else.
Posted on 10/31/18 at 4:11 pm to UpToPar
Anything is possible. Just ask Ken Kratz what actually happened.
Posted on 10/31/18 at 6:18 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
What is the "major issue" with that?
It shows that the documentary is focused on presenting a compelling story and not compiling facts which leads to omitting details and inaccurate descriptions of characters and thats exactly what we got. I can admit the first time I watched it they got me. After further reading it was clear.
I dont have any alters, I'm not that cool. Must have been the OT thread with someone else. 
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