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re: LOST "Across the Sea" S6.E15 (Jacob/MIB Centric)
Posted on 5/12/10 at 4:46 pm to Uncle Stu
Posted on 5/12/10 at 4:46 pm to Uncle Stu
quote:
I think a key episode directly relating to this is from season 1: Hearts & Minds
It's Boone and Shannon, running thru the jungle, Shannon dies, only to find out later, it was a trick. If you re-watch it, the creature that looks like Shannon is grilling Boone, trying to gather as much info as possible, mostly about Locke.
I do have to say, that I have little confidence that when this episode was written and shot, the writers had not conceived of the Jacob/MIB yet, but still an interesting re-watch for sure
im gonna have to rewatch that one and look for that
0
Posted on 5/12/10 at 4:50 pm to Antonio Moss
The first scene (prior to the LOST screen) would have started with the number "26" on the bottom of the screen and a very primitive person running through the jungle in the pouring rain covered in blood with a dagger in his hand.
All actors have never been seen before.
Out of no where a man appears (using an actor we've never seen). The primitive man stops.
All this is spoken in a broken language with subtitles:
Primitive Man: yelling at Man 1 You. You're the deathbringer.
Man 1: No
Primitive Man: Liar.
Man 2: Appearing almost out of thin air No. Looking at Man 1 He can't lie.
Primitive Man: Now looking at Man 2. You? You killed them all.
Man 2: Sorry my friend, but it was you who killed them all.
Primitive Man drops to his knees, rain is pouring down. He drops the dagger.
Man 2: Looking at Primitive Man and states calmly and as a matter of fact And now, you'll die as well.
Man 1: Enough.
Man 2: Still looking at Primitive Man. If only you were . . . says next word with emphasis ... special.
Primitive Man: Looking up at Man 2. Special?
Man 2: Special players have special rules.
Man 1: I said enough.
Man 2: Still talking to primitive man. Only really three. You see, we (camera spans to Man 1) can't remove each other from the board.
Man 1: Stop this!
Man 2: And I can't remove "special" pieces from the board.
Primitive Man: Now visibly shaking begin to utter incoherent prayer
Man 2: And, these special pieces can't remove themselves from the board. . . . But unfortunately for you, my friend . . . . you aren't . . . special.
Primitive Man: crying and yelling. Nonsense! Where is this board?
Man 2: Kneels down next to primitive man and whispers in his ear. You're standing on it.
Camera captures terrified look on Primitive Man's face as he shakes.
Man 2: Gets up and beings to walk away, then turns to face Man 1. It's over. End this.
Man 1: To Man 2. Reconsider
Man 2: With his back turned to Man 1, comes to a complete stop. End it, Jacob.
Man 1 slowly approaches Primitive Man and kneels in front of him. He takes the dagger from the ground.
Man 1: To primitive man. I'm sorry this happened to you. Man 1 touches the side of primitive man's face at which time primitive man's eyes turn completely black and he falls to is death.
Camera spans to Man 2. He reaches out his arms. A blinding light surrounds both men and the entire island.
SCREEN: LOST
All actors have never been seen before.
Out of no where a man appears (using an actor we've never seen). The primitive man stops.
All this is spoken in a broken language with subtitles:
Primitive Man: yelling at Man 1 You. You're the deathbringer.
Man 1: No
Primitive Man: Liar.
Man 2: Appearing almost out of thin air No. Looking at Man 1 He can't lie.
Primitive Man: Now looking at Man 2. You? You killed them all.
Man 2: Sorry my friend, but it was you who killed them all.
Primitive Man drops to his knees, rain is pouring down. He drops the dagger.
Man 2: Looking at Primitive Man and states calmly and as a matter of fact And now, you'll die as well.
Man 1: Enough.
Man 2: Still looking at Primitive Man. If only you were . . . says next word with emphasis ... special.
Primitive Man: Looking up at Man 2. Special?
Man 2: Special players have special rules.
Man 1: I said enough.
Man 2: Still talking to primitive man. Only really three. You see, we (camera spans to Man 1) can't remove each other from the board.
Man 1: Stop this!
Man 2: And I can't remove "special" pieces from the board.
Primitive Man: Now visibly shaking begin to utter incoherent prayer
Man 2: And, these special pieces can't remove themselves from the board. . . . But unfortunately for you, my friend . . . . you aren't . . . special.
Primitive Man: crying and yelling. Nonsense! Where is this board?
Man 2: Kneels down next to primitive man and whispers in his ear. You're standing on it.
Camera captures terrified look on Primitive Man's face as he shakes.
Man 2: Gets up and beings to walk away, then turns to face Man 1. It's over. End this.
Man 1: To Man 2. Reconsider
Man 2: With his back turned to Man 1, comes to a complete stop. End it, Jacob.
Man 1 slowly approaches Primitive Man and kneels in front of him. He takes the dagger from the ground.
Man 1: To primitive man. I'm sorry this happened to you. Man 1 touches the side of primitive man's face at which time primitive man's eyes turn completely black and he falls to is death.
Camera spans to Man 2. He reaches out his arms. A blinding light surrounds both men and the entire island.
SCREEN: LOST
Posted on 5/12/10 at 5:00 pm to joshnorris14
I usually don't post in the episode threads, since I don't want to rain on anyone's parade (as I am quite critical of the show) but The Godfather and OML both said to come in, so here I am.
I am initially unsurprised by the episode and by the direction the show is turning in the end. It has been clear, at least since Season 2, that the writers had no idea what they were doing. At some point in Season 5, they had a clue, but because of all the crap they put out there in 1-3, there was no way to succinctly rectify the situation. The episode is a product of writers, who although mostly capable, have written themselves into a corner and can't get out.
How do they attempt to get out? For the past two seasons the show has been practicing what Poe would call, "writing around necessity." Basically, by introducing certain story elements, even elements with a small impact, the story is forced to confront the issue head on (or what some would refer to as simply "telling the audience"), but instead you completely avoid the topic and leave it up to some "mystery." The "mystery," is problematic because it isn't constructed as a point of needed deduction, so it sits ("on the page" for Poe) and ruins the story.
Take for example the simple act of writing in a real mother for MIB and Jacob who came from somewhere else (related to people we actually see). What happens is:
And further questions. Why are they special? What makes them special? How did she make them immortal? How were they chosen? And on and on and on....
Now, had the episode begun with a raft washing ashore with two baby boys on it and nothing else, followed by pseudo-mom finding it on the beach....those mysteries become interesting and permanent. Some questions we can answer differently, and others CAN be left up to imagination. The idea of them as "special" is covered by the fact that they came to the island in a way that is impossible for two babies to do. The story then supports itself.
The simple act of introducing a mother caused a shift in how you would answer such questions, and made other questions "necessary" in analyzing the show itself. And with necessary questions unanswered, well, that's just where the show is going to end.
The episode itself was a giant moment of the writers "writing around necessity." I mean a "light" really? It might as well be unobtanium.
Look, I didn't expect many answers, I expected a few. And to those who think we got answers, we might have, but we were left with more questions, more necessary questions. This is what Lost has become, all in one episode.
I am initially unsurprised by the episode and by the direction the show is turning in the end. It has been clear, at least since Season 2, that the writers had no idea what they were doing. At some point in Season 5, they had a clue, but because of all the crap they put out there in 1-3, there was no way to succinctly rectify the situation. The episode is a product of writers, who although mostly capable, have written themselves into a corner and can't get out.
How do they attempt to get out? For the past two seasons the show has been practicing what Poe would call, "writing around necessity." Basically, by introducing certain story elements, even elements with a small impact, the story is forced to confront the issue head on (or what some would refer to as simply "telling the audience"), but instead you completely avoid the topic and leave it up to some "mystery." The "mystery," is problematic because it isn't constructed as a point of needed deduction, so it sits ("on the page" for Poe) and ruins the story.
Take for example the simple act of writing in a real mother for MIB and Jacob who came from somewhere else (related to people we actually see). What happens is:
quote:- TigerMyth
By the way, along with how did she make them immortal and why is he stuck on the island,
And further questions. Why are they special? What makes them special? How did she make them immortal? How were they chosen? And on and on and on....
Now, had the episode begun with a raft washing ashore with two baby boys on it and nothing else, followed by pseudo-mom finding it on the beach....those mysteries become interesting and permanent. Some questions we can answer differently, and others CAN be left up to imagination. The idea of them as "special" is covered by the fact that they came to the island in a way that is impossible for two babies to do. The story then supports itself.
The simple act of introducing a mother caused a shift in how you would answer such questions, and made other questions "necessary" in analyzing the show itself. And with necessary questions unanswered, well, that's just where the show is going to end.
The episode itself was a giant moment of the writers "writing around necessity." I mean a "light" really? It might as well be unobtanium.
Look, I didn't expect many answers, I expected a few. And to those who think we got answers, we might have, but we were left with more questions, more necessary questions. This is what Lost has become, all in one episode.
This post was edited on 5/12/10 at 5:02 pm
Posted on 5/12/10 at 5:05 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
I mean a "light" really?
I'd say it ties in with things they were introducing as early as Season 2...the special properties of the island, EME, etc.
I think it fits (I know I'm in the minority here).
Posted on 5/12/10 at 5:08 pm to tuck
quote:
tuck
Don't take any of this personally...
quote:
It's about watching people lie and people getting deceived. It's about human failure and human success. It's about faith versus reason. It's about whether people should act on faith or question it and hesitate. It's about good and evil. It's about fate vs. free will. It's about love. Why do we really need to know about the fricking statue? It's meaningless in comparison to the interactions between the characters and the deeper philosophical issues this show brings up.
If the show IS about all of these things, then the show really isn't about anything at all. Anything that is written to be completely abstract essentially cannot be:
quote:
A fabulous piece of fiction/fantasy, with symbolism out the wazoo.
quote:
This whole time, through all 6 seasons, one of the biggest issues that Lost has presented is whether it is reasonable to act on faith without questioning or should one question what one is told. This has been one of the most fascinating aspects of Lost to me. For Christians and people of other religions, this is a very pertinent question. Interestingly, LOST has come down on both sides of the issue. With Locke, his actions and "faith" got him manipulated and dead. With Jack, it seems that his faith is going to put him on the "good" side. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
I would agree if that was a permanent focus, but it isn't been and isn't supported enough.
quote:
Like any good philosophical question, there is no right answer.
Plenty of philosophers would disagree with the idea of no answers to important questions.
quote:
So to expect the LOST writers to answer questions they can't, is asking too much. I'm sure there are plenty of holes in my little diatribe that won't satisfy any of you, just as there are in LOST.
Except most of the questions that people want answers to would prove to them that the show actually does mean something. By everything fluid, your characters, your meaning, your plot, your central idea, you lack the structure to actually mean something big.
Take Walt, he never should have been labeled as special, simple as that. The numbers should have never been given ANY supernatural meaning. People are mad about some answers not being given (maybe not the ones above, but others), because they need certain threads closed before they will naturally form a conclusion for themselves.
White Shadeaux said it:
quote:
All great fantasy/sci fi stories at least produce a believable and consistent universe that the reader or viewer can fill in all the blanks. In this case, the unanswered questions.
This episode failed to create the backstory framework which our suspension of disbelief hinges upon. Worse, it never set the tone that any of this is going on for a reason. Show us that all this matters somehow to the main characters. If it doesn't matter tho them, then why is it supposed to matter to us? That's it.
This post was edited on 5/12/10 at 5:11 pm
Posted on 5/12/10 at 5:12 pm to Muppet
quote:
The thing that baffled me most about the episode was MIB's explanation for what the frick he was doing with the wheel. I need to rewatch that scene and pay closer attention to what he says, but his explanation for how the light + the water + the wheel were supposed to get him off the island made no sense to me. Then she asked him how he knew it would work and his response was, "I just know."
See above. It's just terrible plotting/writing.
Posted on 5/12/10 at 5:14 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
See above. It's just terrible plotting/writing.
I really think they never planned to explain the island's mythology or where or who Jacob and MIB are (which would have been wonderful), but they bent to pressure.
Posted on 5/12/10 at 5:16 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Freauxzen
No worries. I knew you wouldn't agree with me.
quote:I know they believe they are right. Whether they really are correct is not provable and that's all I meant. Whatever decision they come to, there is an element of faith (or assumption) that is inherent within it. And by the way, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. It's perfectly fine to assume certain things (even this). But the fact is, it is still possible that those assumptions are wrong.
Plenty of philosophers would disagree with the idea of no answers to important questions.
This post was edited on 5/12/10 at 5:21 pm
Posted on 5/12/10 at 5:19 pm to tuck
The writers have already said that they will not expressly answer the bigger philosophical questions, that it will be up to the viewers to figure it out on their own. They said that they only owe the audience the answers to some of the bigger mysteries (including the flash-sideways) and a definite ending.
Anyone who is expecting anything more will be disappointed.
Anyone who is expecting anything more will be disappointed.
Posted on 5/12/10 at 5:20 pm to Decatur
quote:
The writers have already said that they will not expressly answer the bigger philosophical questions, that it will be up to the viewers to figure it out on their own. They said that they only owe the audience the answers to some of the bigger mysteries (including the flash-sideways) and a definite ending.
They tried to answer arguably the biggest mystery last night and it turned out awful.
Posted on 5/12/10 at 5:21 pm to Antonio Moss
Which one...teh light?
Posted on 5/12/10 at 5:24 pm to Decatur
Why the island is special.
Because it holds some gay light.
Because it holds some gay light.
Posted on 5/12/10 at 5:27 pm to Antonio Moss
Okay. One really interesting thing about last night's episode (even though I didn't like it as a whole.)
This is now the 3rd time we've seen babies born on the island - Jacob/MIB, Ethan, and Aaron.
Jacob and MIB were obviously stolen and "raised by another." Could this tie into Season One's theme that Claire must raise Aaron?
This is now the 3rd time we've seen babies born on the island - Jacob/MIB, Ethan, and Aaron.
Jacob and MIB were obviously stolen and "raised by another." Could this tie into Season One's theme that Claire must raise Aaron?
Posted on 5/12/10 at 5:27 pm to Decatur
Here's an interview w/ Cuse and Lindelof today by Sepinwall, sorry if it's been posted.
answers guaranteed to not satisfy you
answers guaranteed to not satisfy you
Posted on 5/12/10 at 5:29 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
Because it holds some gay light.
As I just said in a prior post, it ties things in back with what we learned about the Island in Season 2 about the mysterious properties of the Island, the electromagnetism, and all that good stuff. The Romans came in and tried to harness the the power...so did the Dharma Initiative...and they both got Purged. History repeats itself.
I think the explanation works.
Posted on 5/12/10 at 5:33 pm to Decatur
quote:
As I just said in a prior post, it ties things in back with what we learned about the Island in Season 2 about the mysterious properties of the Island, the electromagnetism, and all that good stuff. The Romans came in and tried to harness the the power...so did the Dharma Initiative...and they both got Purged. History repeats itself.
The problem with all of this is that there are people we have seen who know exactly what the island does/is. The writers just avoid letting them tell us. You can't have it both ways. If no one knew what the island did, then it wouldn't be a big deal. Of course then there would be no war, no Widmore, etc. but that would make it a better story. But to have characters who know not EVENTUALLY explain it...that's just fricking with the audience. It's not clever, it's childish.
Posted on 5/12/10 at 5:33 pm to Decatur
quote:
History repeats itself.
All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.
shite, wrong show.
Posted on 5/12/10 at 5:34 pm to ligerbait
quote:
All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.
shite, wrong show.
Posted on 5/12/10 at 5:35 pm to Decatur
quote:
As I just said in a prior post, it ties things in back with what we learned about the Island in Season 2 about the mysterious properties of the Island, the electromagnetism
Electromagnetism and "light of good and bad" are totally different things. The mystery of the island should have never been addressed.
Posted on 5/12/10 at 5:36 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
But to have characters who know not EVENTUALLY explain it...that's just fricking with the audience. It's not clever, it's childish.
The show's not over, champ
I imagine they're waiting for the finale to blow their load
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