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Started By
Message
re: A Dance With Dragons - Official Post-release SPOILER Thread
Posted on 7/13/11 at 10:44 am to fouldeliverer
Posted on 7/13/11 at 10:44 am to fouldeliverer
quote:
More importantly is Young Griff who he says he is? I don't buy it.
Funny that you mention this two posts down from someone mentioning Dany's visions in the House of the Undying. I think she saw Young Griff coming.
1
Posted on 7/13/11 at 10:50 am to Green Chili Tiger
I need to go back and read those prophecies. You read my post in the I read the book thread?
Posted on 7/13/11 at 10:52 am to fouldeliverer
quote:
I need to go back and read those prophecies. You read my post in the I read the book thread?
No. I'll check it out.
I was referring to this.
quote:A mummers dragon.
a cloth dragon swaying on poles amidst a cheering crowd
Posted on 7/13/11 at 10:54 am to Green Chili Tiger
Ah yeah. Do you consider Jorah one of her 3 treasons? I know that is debated.
Posted on 7/13/11 at 10:56 am to fouldeliverer
quote:
Do you consider Jorah one of her 3 treasons? I know that is debated.
I'm not convinced that what he has done so far is one of the three treasons, but I think you're ahead of me in ADWD.
Eta: Nice post on Daario, I don't get what she see's in him at all.
This post was edited on 7/13/11 at 10:59 am
Posted on 7/13/11 at 11:04 am to Green Chili Tiger
I think its a ploy by Martin, he wants us to hate the guy and scream at Dany and say "NO WTF ARE YOU THINKING 
" But the guy is just too much and the tactic is too overt. Another thing is that it doesn't fit into Daenerys persona that we know so it feels out of place. Any time you detract yourself from the novel and say what was the Author thinking when he wrote this, you lose that close connection with the characters.
" But the guy is just too much and the tactic is too overt. Another thing is that it doesn't fit into Daenerys persona that we know so it feels out of place. Any time you detract yourself from the novel and say what was the Author thinking when he wrote this, you lose that close connection with the characters. Posted on 7/13/11 at 11:09 am to fouldeliverer
quote:
But the guy is just too much and the tactic is too overt. Another thing is that it doesn't fit into Daenerys persona that we know so it feels out of place. Any time you detract yourself from the novel and say what was the Author thinking when he wrote this, you lose that close connection with the characters.
I agree.
I do like the "wanton women" as his hilts, that's the coolest, most interesting thing about the character though.
Posted on 7/13/11 at 12:48 pm to Green Chili Tiger
argh, my book (pre-ordered) just shipped TODAY. I know, all you e-bookies have been reading and are like half-way through it, but I'm still an old-fashioned reader, I like to turn pages. I should have just picked up a copy at B&N or somethng yesterday morning instead of ordering from Amazon, I guess. Oh, well, I'm just gonna have to be patient. The hardest part is skipping all the discussion in the mean time!
Posted on 7/14/11 at 2:55 am to Shreveporter
I finished it. So caution, my post will be with plenty of spoilers...
Roughly 100 of the first 140 pages were from the pre release readings he had done over the past 2 years by the way.
Not many of the reveals in this book were actual surprises. If you had read the Dunk and Egg novellas then you would have most likely guessed Brynden Rivers and 3 Eyed Crow connection. The Griff and Young Griff wasn't very hard either, and a couple of people even guessed it as well in the ASOIAF books thread.
Jon is clearly set up as AA reborn, the passage with the flaming/hot sword in his visions. I just wonder how it will happen, maybe a healing similar to what Victarion received.
I don't really know how Arya will connect with the other POV's now though she seems pretty set in her role now, but I guess main characters will always attract the ire of their enemies and assassins will be hired.
I guess we know what Brienne's last word was now lol, poor Jaime, and I actually enjoyed his character in AFFC. GRRM most likely has a horrid death in store for him, which is kinda sad since I thought he turned a new leaf, but oh well.
For everyone wondering Vary's loyalty I am glad it has been clearly settled. The throne is completely ripe for the taking, Westeros is one gigantic shite storm, other than the Vale everything is in ruins.
One thing I am not a fan of though is the reveal of Joanna and Aerys. At this point there are just too many secret Targs. Jaime and Cersei could be his, I wouldn't really care, but if GRRM makes Tyrion a Targ I'll be pissed. He has spent time having characters state how Tyrion was Tywin's true son... I know Tyrion is supposed to tame the dragons and he will need dragon's blood, but I really don't want him to be a Targ.
One other sour note for me are the Dany chapters. Ever since GOT she has progressively been becoming a tougher and tougher read for me. I just don't really enjoy her chapters any longer.
With the state of affairs as they are now if the Others ever did come in force Westeros would be effed. AA/Jon hasn't been reborn yet, no dragons on Westeros, Kings Landing is Lannisters and Tyrells fighting each other with Aemon Targaryen on his way to increase the fighting in Kings Landing. The North is completely lost, Ramsay Bolton could greatly harm the Nights Watch, which itself is in probably the worst state of all right now. Unless Sansa and Littlefinger make do on their promise to take back Winterfell along with the strength of the Vale, then all kingdoms would be involved in the Westeros power struggle and weakening of armed forces.
Roughly 100 of the first 140 pages were from the pre release readings he had done over the past 2 years by the way.
Not many of the reveals in this book were actual surprises. If you had read the Dunk and Egg novellas then you would have most likely guessed Brynden Rivers and 3 Eyed Crow connection. The Griff and Young Griff wasn't very hard either, and a couple of people even guessed it as well in the ASOIAF books thread.
Jon is clearly set up as AA reborn, the passage with the flaming/hot sword in his visions. I just wonder how it will happen, maybe a healing similar to what Victarion received.
I don't really know how Arya will connect with the other POV's now though she seems pretty set in her role now, but I guess main characters will always attract the ire of their enemies and assassins will be hired.
I guess we know what Brienne's last word was now lol, poor Jaime, and I actually enjoyed his character in AFFC. GRRM most likely has a horrid death in store for him, which is kinda sad since I thought he turned a new leaf, but oh well.
For everyone wondering Vary's loyalty I am glad it has been clearly settled. The throne is completely ripe for the taking, Westeros is one gigantic shite storm, other than the Vale everything is in ruins.
One thing I am not a fan of though is the reveal of Joanna and Aerys. At this point there are just too many secret Targs. Jaime and Cersei could be his, I wouldn't really care, but if GRRM makes Tyrion a Targ I'll be pissed. He has spent time having characters state how Tyrion was Tywin's true son... I know Tyrion is supposed to tame the dragons and he will need dragon's blood, but I really don't want him to be a Targ.
One other sour note for me are the Dany chapters. Ever since GOT she has progressively been becoming a tougher and tougher read for me. I just don't really enjoy her chapters any longer.
With the state of affairs as they are now if the Others ever did come in force Westeros would be effed. AA/Jon hasn't been reborn yet, no dragons on Westeros, Kings Landing is Lannisters and Tyrells fighting each other with Aemon Targaryen on his way to increase the fighting in Kings Landing. The North is completely lost, Ramsay Bolton could greatly harm the Nights Watch, which itself is in probably the worst state of all right now. Unless Sansa and Littlefinger make do on their promise to take back Winterfell along with the strength of the Vale, then all kingdoms would be involved in the Westeros power struggle and weakening of armed forces.
This post was edited on 7/14/11 at 3:07 am
Posted on 7/19/11 at 2:37 pm to ATLienTiger
I finished ADWD Saturday. Don't read if you haven't and don't want to be spoiled. I know I'll need to reread because I flew through it too quickly to catch details.
I liked Ser Barristan's POV's in Mereen more than Dany's POV's. I hope we continue to get them. It was very interesting getting his thoughts about previous Targ actions. I wonder how his loyalty is going to be stretched when he finds out about Aegon and Jon Connington. It will be hard for him to doubt Connington's word that it is the true Aegon.
I was glad Quentyn Martell got roasted, simply because I found his POV's boring. Otherwise, kinda sad but...that's what he gets for trying to steal dragons. His continued thoughts that he was the hero in some story and therefore couldn't die were retarded.
The last Jon chapter was heart breaking and expected. Hopefully Melisandre has realized now that he is AA reborn and is a better resurectionist than Thoros of Myr. But, if Jon is AA reborn, who is Nissa Nissa? My question after was, what does Bowen Marsh hope to accomplish by his actions? The wildlings are all already south of the wall. Does he think the 150 odd nights watch are going to be able to expel Tormund and the 4000 wildlings that just came through? Especially considering several of them are set up in castles?
How much of Ramsay Bolton's letter do you guys believe? All of it? If so, wtf. The last time we left them they were setting out to find Stannis with half their strength about to kill the other half. I'm very interested in what happened there, probably the cliff hanger that has me thinking the most.
The end of this book makes me hate the way he split AFFC and ADWD even more. All the story lines that I cared about from AFFC felt clipped and I was just getting back into them when the story ended again.
I'm done spewing thoughts now. These are in no way organized or meticulously thought through. I've got 5 years for that right?
I liked Ser Barristan's POV's in Mereen more than Dany's POV's. I hope we continue to get them. It was very interesting getting his thoughts about previous Targ actions. I wonder how his loyalty is going to be stretched when he finds out about Aegon and Jon Connington. It will be hard for him to doubt Connington's word that it is the true Aegon.
I was glad Quentyn Martell got roasted, simply because I found his POV's boring. Otherwise, kinda sad but...that's what he gets for trying to steal dragons. His continued thoughts that he was the hero in some story and therefore couldn't die were retarded.
The last Jon chapter was heart breaking and expected. Hopefully Melisandre has realized now that he is AA reborn and is a better resurectionist than Thoros of Myr. But, if Jon is AA reborn, who is Nissa Nissa? My question after was, what does Bowen Marsh hope to accomplish by his actions? The wildlings are all already south of the wall. Does he think the 150 odd nights watch are going to be able to expel Tormund and the 4000 wildlings that just came through? Especially considering several of them are set up in castles?
How much of Ramsay Bolton's letter do you guys believe? All of it? If so, wtf. The last time we left them they were setting out to find Stannis with half their strength about to kill the other half. I'm very interested in what happened there, probably the cliff hanger that has me thinking the most.
The end of this book makes me hate the way he split AFFC and ADWD even more. All the story lines that I cared about from AFFC felt clipped and I was just getting back into them when the story ended again.
I'm done spewing thoughts now. These are in no way organized or meticulously thought through. I've got 5 years for that right?
Posted on 7/19/11 at 2:43 pm to ATLienTiger
Do you think it will be as striaght forward as Brienne brings Jaime to Stoneheart, Stoneheart kills Jaime? Somehow I think there will be more. Would have been nice to get a Jaime chapter with those characters in it though, since they were so prominent in AFFC.
I agree, is was nice to see where Varys truly stands, although it was sad he killed Kevin, who I always liked. It seems GRRM is going to continue to kill off anyone I feel a connection to. I think Varys will be instrumental in forging some kind of peace between Dany and Aegon if one happens.
I agree, is was nice to see where Varys truly stands, although it was sad he killed Kevin, who I always liked. It seems GRRM is going to continue to kill off anyone I feel a connection to. I think Varys will be instrumental in forging some kind of peace between Dany and Aegon if one happens.
Posted on 7/19/11 at 3:25 pm to MediTiger
quote:
I liked Ser Barristan's POV's in Mereen more than Dany's POV's.
He's continuing to muck up Dany's chapters. She was growing and maturing but is right back to being an idiot.
quote:
he finds out about Aegon and Jon Connington. It will be hard for him to doubt Connington's word that it is the true Aegon.
Problem is it sounds as if Connington himself really believes it, so I really don't know whether or not to take it as truth. If it's true it completely belittles Dany's worth. And there would be far too many secret Targs living around the world.
quote:
But, if Jon is AA reborn, who is Nissa Nissa?
Hopefully not Ghost, he did flee to his mind it seemed at the end.
quote:
My question after was, what does Bowen Marsh hope to accomplish by his actions?
He's no tactician, and neither is anyone else there really. There really won't be anything good coming from it, but that is to be expected. Because, the story needs the Wall to be weak when the Others come, that way Jon/AA reborn, & Dany can make a true impact saving the realm.
Also, the Queen's men would essentially be taking over, but with that letter from Ramsay the shite just hit the fan, and the wall and all it's inhabitants are in a really bad situation.
quote:
How much of Ramsay Bolton's letter do you guys believe?
I honestly don't know. The guy is a liar and sort of cunning, and this is GRRM so we know not all of it can be true.
p.s. sorry for breaking this thread for 5 days lol.
This post was edited on 7/19/11 at 3:34 pm
Posted on 7/19/11 at 3:32 pm to MediTiger
quote:
Do you think it will be as striaght forward as Brienne brings Jaime to Stoneheart, Stoneheart kills Jaime?
Well, no. We have seen Jamie's character grow an immense amount through AFFC, but GRRM is certainly going to give him a bad ending for all his evil misdeeds. I really don't know what is going to happen, because at some point Stoneheart herself will need to be written out of the story, and that band will break up. There are just too many forces in the Riverlands and there are still plenty of Frey's left to deal with.
quote:
it was sad he killed Kevin
Yeah, it was. But losing just that one person ensures thousands more die and Kings Landing will be in total disarray for when Aegon arrives.
quote:
I think Varys will be instrumental in forging some kind of peace between Dany and Aegon if one happens
I don't know if that will even be needed. Say Aegon truly isn't a Targ, or if he or Connington dies at some point. Dany will most likely help out with the Wall, but I really don't know what happens will the rest of Westeros remain completely oblivious to the perils and heroics of AA reborn and Dany if they fight back the forces of the Others? It would be a shame if all their merits went unnoticed, but that is essentially what the entire series of Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen series is about.
Posted on 7/19/11 at 3:33 pm to ATLienTiger
So who thinks the blood on Dany's thighs means she can have kids again?
I mean, the sun(symbol of Dorne) is rising in the west (beginnings of rebellion) and set in the east (Quenton's death), the mountains are crumbling (the pyramids in Mereen), and the sea is drying out (the Dothraki Sea of grass is yellowing).
I mean, the sun(symbol of Dorne) is rising in the west (beginnings of rebellion) and set in the east (Quenton's death), the mountains are crumbling (the pyramids in Mereen), and the sea is drying out (the Dothraki Sea of grass is yellowing).
This post was edited on 7/19/11 at 3:36 pm
Posted on 7/19/11 at 3:53 pm to ATLienTiger
quote:
Problem is it sounds as if Connington himself really believes it, so I really don't know whether or not to take it as truth. If it's true it completely belittles Dany's worth. And there would be far too many secret Targs living around the world.
Oh, I agree that Connington 100% believes him to be the real Aegon. Honestly, I think he is too, because it appears that Varys believes it. If there was a switch, Varys did it, and he seems to be in support of Aegon.
The only place this thinking kind of comes apart is that he was working with Ilyrio to set up Dany's return (or Viserys before he died), but Aegon was the true heir. That doesn't make much sense to me if he knew and was involved in Aegon's hiding/education(and how could he not be?). Why would he set up a secret pact to marry Viserys to Arianne Martell if he knew Aegon was out there to one day come back as king?
quote:
There really won't be anything good coming from it, but that is to be expected. Because, the story needs the Wall to be weak when the Others come, that way Jon/AA reborn, & Dany can make a true impact saving the realm.
I know, but I hate to take step outside the story to find motivation for a character. I think that takes away from the experience, and previously GRRM hasn't written that way. The fact that Jon had the conversation with Marsh about every wildling through is one less wight to fight and Marsh still went through with his assasination is infuriating. I guess that is part of the human condition though. Our hatreds do not allow us to see the big picture.
quote:
Hopefully not Ghost, he did flee to his mind it seemed at the end.
Agh, didn't even think about Ghost. Please gods no.
Posted on 7/19/11 at 3:59 pm to Green Chili Tiger
quote:
So who thinks the blood on Dany's thighs means she can have kids again? I mean, the sun(symbol of Dorne) is rising in the west (beginnings of rebellion) and set in the east (Quenton's death), the mountains are crumbling (the pyramids in Mereen), and the sea is drying out (the Dothraki Sea of grass is yellowing).
Yeah, I think this is right. In medical terms a cycle means ovulation took place and then there was no conception (good thing, since she was only sleeping with Dhario!)
From earlier posts:
quote:
Ah yeah. Do you consider Jorah one of her 3 treasons? I know that is debated.
No
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
a cloth dragon swaying on poles amidst a cheering crowd
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A mummers dragon.
Do you think this means he is a fake or that he is Varys' creature. (from a mummer's troupe is his official backstory)
This post was edited on 7/19/11 at 4:05 pm
Posted on 7/19/11 at 4:03 pm to MediTiger
quote:
Yeah, I think this is right. In medical terms a cycle means ovulation took place and then there was no conception (good thing, since she was only sleeping with Dhario!)
But if this is true, then when her "womb quickens and she bears a living child" then Khal Drogo will return.
Posted on 7/19/11 at 4:06 pm to Green Chili Tiger
Yeah, it does get a bit confused there, but she was found by a dothraki scout at the very end. Who knows what will happen next...
Posted on 7/19/11 at 4:07 pm to MediTiger
quote:
Yeah, it does get a bit confused there, but she was found by a dothraki scout at the very end. Who knows what will happen next...
True
Posted on 7/19/11 at 4:13 pm to MediTiger
Manderly went from being a weak Stark bannerman (in my eyes) to one of the biggest BAMFs in Westeros. Frey Pie indeed.
One thing to remember about Bowen Marsh (and probably Clydas and Othell Yarwyk as two of the other stabbers) is that they never personally faced wights, only wildlings. It's one thing to hear about these evil enemies, and another to come face to face with them. That, at least, is how I think they can still have the mindset that the wildlings are not worth saving.
Also, Jon being dead for the moment allows the Wall to fall without our hero getting all the blame. He can then be miraculously resurrected as AA and, along with Dany and the dragons, save the day.
I also think Ramsey is lying about killing Stannis. The numbers and timing just don't make a whole lot of sense to me. Without Jeyne/Arya, the Bolton lead northern alliance is on very shaky ground. Stannis would have been informed about the impending Karstark betrayal by Theon as well as possibly the banker. Plus I don't see the Manderly's wasting their manpower to help Frey's and Bolton's in a even contest.
And I agree, Dany's chapters up until her last two were pretty boring and pointless.
One thing to remember about Bowen Marsh (and probably Clydas and Othell Yarwyk as two of the other stabbers) is that they never personally faced wights, only wildlings. It's one thing to hear about these evil enemies, and another to come face to face with them. That, at least, is how I think they can still have the mindset that the wildlings are not worth saving.
Also, Jon being dead for the moment allows the Wall to fall without our hero getting all the blame. He can then be miraculously resurrected as AA and, along with Dany and the dragons, save the day.
I also think Ramsey is lying about killing Stannis. The numbers and timing just don't make a whole lot of sense to me. Without Jeyne/Arya, the Bolton lead northern alliance is on very shaky ground. Stannis would have been informed about the impending Karstark betrayal by Theon as well as possibly the banker. Plus I don't see the Manderly's wasting their manpower to help Frey's and Bolton's in a even contest.
And I agree, Dany's chapters up until her last two were pretty boring and pointless.
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