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Fair enough. Still Cam's numbers compare favorably.

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No, they don't. And that's even before you address the differences in the rules for receivers. Cam turns the ball over at higher rates, scores less frequently, and doesn't win at anything approaching a Marino-like rate. That's not a gap between the quarterbacks-- it is a yawning chasm.

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Cam's playing on a team that has huge skill position talent. Much much better than Miami had


He's got 1 great WR and 2 decent TEs. I wouldn't say "huge skill position" talent.

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Steve Smith is a 4 time Pro Bowler, a 3 time All Pro, and will go over 10,000 career yards this season. Shockey is a 4 time Pro Bowler, and has been on an All Pro team. Olsen is no slouch, either-- Carolina is regarded as having some of the best TEs in the NFL.

Williams and Stewart have combined for 3 different 1,000 yard rushing seasons in the past 3 years; Williams has been a Pro Bowler and an All Pro.

Marino molded a couple of rookie WRs into great players. It was far more a build-on-the-fly situation than Cam has-- Cam was set up for success from day one, by having all kinds of experienced talent in place at the positions that can make or break a rookie quarterback.

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Regardless of skill position talent, Marino played on a vastly superior team that won their division the year before he showed up.

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More sloppiness with detail; in 1982, the NFL did not play in a divisional system, due to the strike. Marino had no benefit of a preseason, either, so that bit of 'Newton's doing so much from a worse position' bit is pretty silly.

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Wins are a team accomplishment. If you really think Cam is the reason his team is losing games, well, I don't know what to tell you.

He can't help it when he drives 65 yards in 2 minutes and Olindo Mare misses a chip shot to send it to OT.

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Wins are a quarterback's job to secure, particularly when his teammates aren't playing their best. Cam has been very successful statistically, but not on the scoreboard. Exacerbating this is how his teams have lost-- Carolina needs no last minute FG to tie Minnesota; if Cam doesn't fumble twice and give Minnesota short fields that lead to touchdowns, Carolina is comfortably ahead and able to rely on their running game to salt it away.

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Sorry Marino's is .2 better. Cam has him in all the other rate stats...

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Yeah, except the wins, the touchdowns, the turnovers....those things are never important, after all. It's not like they're more central to a quarterback's job than say yards per attempt.

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Marino has one of the quickest releases of all time, that's no secret. But, I'd wager that more than a couple of Cam's 10 sacks come from him trying to extend plays and make big things happen. Their styles of play are so different, it's pointless to try and compare something silly like sacks IMO... especially something that, while can be influenced by the QB, has so many other factors to it.

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Typo on my part; it's *17* sacks for the quarterback who is supposed to be merited as having earned separation based upon superior mobility. It's only a pointless comparison to you, because it reflects poorly on an area of the game where Cam should have enormous separation from Marino.

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How many sacks has Cam avoided due to his mobility? Why don't you want to talk about his 300 yards rushing, or that he's accounted for 500 more yards of offense than Marino?

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Based on snap numbers, not many. He gets sacked at a higher rate than Marino per snap. I'm all for giving Cam his due on the ground-- about 260 yards in Cam's favor. Those are all positive points in his favor, but he's not getting it done at the Marino level.

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Why are you refusing to give Cam his due, is my question?

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There is a far cry between giving him his due, and putting his season on a pedestal as you are doing.

He deserves to be the consensus NFL Rookie of the Year, if he maintains a level of play even somewhat near his level. He'll warrant some Pro Bowl consideration, though he is less likely to get it in the NFC than he should be.

He is not having a Marino rookie year, though. He's having an excellent year, but that was one of the best rookie years, ever.

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I'm assuming you grew up with Marino, and think he's the greatest QB ever. Okay, that's fine, I don't think that's offbase. But that doesn't mean his numbers are sacred and can't be touched.

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Nope. I don't think he really belongs in the Top 5 conversation, and am usually of a mind to keep him out of the Top 7 of all time, based on his inability to win the biggest games.

His numbers certainly can be touched-- but Cam Newton isn't doing it.

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At the end of the year, Cam is going to have 4,000 yards passing, 500+ rushing yards and have accounted for around 40 TDs. That's an amazing season for anyone... much less a rookie who supposedly "couldn't throw."

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4,000 passing yards, maybe. I think he'll end up closer to 700 rushing yards, but that is probably a bit of an X-factor where a couple of broken protections or a bad day can cause 100 yard swing.

He's going to account for around 35 touchdowns at present rates, not 40.

This is the consistent problem with people who are tripping over themselves to annoint Cam.

He's done absolutely great. He's got the makings of one of the best quarterbacks in the league for a lot of years to come, but his accomplishments are too often overstated. I'd like to see him succeed, and turn Carolina around-- but it is going to take more than two months of good production to do that.

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No, they don't.

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I mean, I don't even know what to say. YOU POSTED THE NUMBERS. And they are damn near equal, even though you distorted Cam's numbers wrong, shorting him 2 TDs.

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Steve Smith is a 4 time Pro Bowler, a 3 time All Pro, and will go over 10,000 career yards this season. Shockey is a 4 time Pro Bowler, and has been on an All Pro team. Olsen is no slouch, either-- Carolina is regarded as having some of the best TEs in the NFL.

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I'll give you Smith, but he is still 32, so not exactly prime age any longer. Shockey is well past his prime, and Olsen is talented, but has never really realized his potential until this year... wonder what the difference is?

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Cam was set up for success from day one,

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Then why didn't Clausen succeed? Why not Matt Moore? Why not Delhomme his last couple of years?

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More sloppiness with detail; in 1982, the NFL did not play in a divisional system, due to the strike.

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:Sigh: you know what I meant.

And considering you got details wrong earlier, there's really no need to try to substantiate your argument on this...

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Marino had no benefit of a preseason, either, so that bit of 'Newton's doing so much from a worse position' bit is pretty silly.

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Marino stepped into a team coming off a Super Bowl man. I don't know what you want me to say. You are basically saying that 2-14 2010 Carolina Panthers are better than the Super Bowl runner up Dolphins. Your argument really doesn't hold water here.

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Wins are a quarterback's job to secure,

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Not really. It's a team game.

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Cam has been very successful statistically, but not on the scoreboard.

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Carolina is 5th in the NFL in scoring. Of the 10 teams ranked in the top 10 in scoring, the Eagles are the only team that don't have a winning record.

Conversely, Carolina's scoring defense is 31st in the league. Only one team has allowed more points.

I'm not sure if you are wanting Cam to play safety too, or what.

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Carolina needs no last minute FG to tie Minnesota; if Cam doesn't fumble twice and give Minnesota short fields that lead to touchdowns

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Sure. Turnovers happen. Both times he was in the pocket, both times trying to throw the ball... It's not as if he was just toting it around like a loaf of bread or throwing into triple coverage. He's a rookie and he makes mistakes. Does it not say anything to you that he can rebound and put points on the board? Andrew Luck threw a pick 6 at a crucial juncture vs. USC.

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Yeah, except the wins, the touchdowns, the turnovers....those things are never important, after all. It's not like they're more central to a quarterback's job than say yards per attempt.

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I must say, you might be the first person in the history of the universe to use the "Dan Marino winning" argument. Typically a mark against him, since his teams could never close the deal...

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Typo on my part; it's *17* sacks for the quarterback who is supposed to be merited as having earned separation based upon superior mobility. It's only a pointless comparison to you, because it reflects poorly on an area of the game where Cam should have enormous separation from Marino.

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No, it's pointless because unless you want to look at every single sack, it's impossible to point to where the fault lies regarding the sacks. There are times when QBs have zero chance to avoid sacks.

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He is not having a Marino rookie year, though. He's having an excellent year, but that was one of the best rookie years, ever.

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So if he keeps pace, which he's shown no sign of not, and gets the 4,000, 500 yards rushing and accounts for 40 TDs where does that rank on your all-time rookie years?

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He's done absolutely great. He's got the makings of one of the best quarterbacks in the league for a lot of years to come, but his accomplishments are too often overstated

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What, exactly have I overstated?

I said his numbers were comparable to Marino's rookie year. I didn't say better. I didn't say best ever. Comparable.

As it stands, if the season ended tomorrow, he will have accounted for 500 more yards of offense, including 200 more passing yards on fewer attempts, 18 total TDs, and 11 total turnovers (the two fumbles he lost this past weekend were the first two he's actually lost).

So, here are the actual lines:

Cam: 2,712 total yards, 18 TDs, 11 Turnovers, 60.6%, averaging 299 pypg, 39.9 rypg, 7.7 AY/A, 13.8 Y/C.

Marino: 2,255 total yards, 22 TDs, 9 turnovers, 58.2%, averaging 200 pypg, 4.1 rypg, 7.9 AY/A, 12.8 Y/C.

To me, seems pretty comparable. But you are going to lump in wins. I took a look at the schedule for fun, 1983 Miami allowed 24+ points only 4 times in 16 games. They were 2-2 in those games.

2011 Carolina has allowed 24 points in 6 of their 8 games (and 20 in another). They are 0-6 in those games. Carolina's 6 losses are to @Arizona (bad loss), Green Bay, @Chicago, New Orleans, @Atlanta and Minnesota. That's 4 playoff teams from the previous year, including the SB Champion. Not like his team is losing to Cleveland and Miami.

One final point, since you made a comment about "the new rules." I agree, it's generally best to compare how players perform against their era.

The '83 Dolphins were 19th in passing offense, 13th in rushing offense, and 7th in scoring.

The '11 Panthers are 2nd in passing offense, 5th in rushing offense, and 7th in scoring.

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I mean, I don't even know what to say. YOU POSTED THE NUMBERS. And they are damn near equal, even though you distorted Cam's numbers wrong, shorting him 2 TDs.

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If you can't tell the difference between a larger turnover ratio, and a losing record vs. a winning one, there is little really point trying to spell it out any more for you. There is gaping separation. It'd be much smaller if Carolina was a .500 football team, but they're not.

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Steve Smith is a 4 time Pro Bowler, a 3 time All Pro, and will go over 10,000 career yards this season. Shockey is a 4 time Pro Bowler, and has been on an All Pro team. Olsen is no slouch, either-- Carolina is regarded as having some of the best TEs in the NFL.


I'll give you Smith, but he is still 32, so not exactly prime age any longer. Shockey is well past his prime, and Olsen is talented, but has never really realized his potential until this year... wonder what the difference is?

Then why didn't Clausen succeed? Why not Matt
Moore? Why not Delhomme his last couple of years?

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Because they weren't nearly as good as Cam. Maybe you gloss over where I say he deserves a consensus ROY win, even if his numbers fell off fairly significantly.

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Marino stepped into a team coming off a Super Bowl man. I don't know what you want me to say. You are basically saying that 2-14 2010 Carolina Panthers are better than the Super Bowl runner up Dolphins. Your argument really doesn't hold water here.

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Not what I was saying, but that's glossing over the better skill player situation that Cam landed in; it's no accident that the Dolphins emerged as Marino's team almost immediately despite completely retooling that offense.

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Not really. It's a team game.

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Yes, really. That's why guys like Johnny Unitas and Otto Graham still get mentioned in the Greatest of All Time discussions. It's why Bart Starr is in the HOF when his numbers say he's a slightly less impressive Matt Hasselebeck 1.0, even accounting some for era differentiation.

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Carolina is 5th in the NFL in scoring. Of the 10 teams ranked in the top 10 in scoring, the Eagles are the only team that don't have a winning record.

Conversely, Carolina's scoring defense is 31st in the league. Only one team has allowed more points.

I'm not sure if you are wanting Cam to play safety too, or what.

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He can start by taking care of the football, not giving other teams short fields, etc. Right now, that's his single biggest problem. If he gets that under control, the sky is the absolute limit.

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Sure. Turnovers happen. Both times he was in the pocket, both times trying to throw the ball... It's not as if he was just toting it around like a loaf of bread or throwing into triple coverage. He's a rookie and he makes mistakes. Does it not say anything to you that he can rebound and put points on the board? Andrew Luck threw a pick 6 at a crucial juncture vs. USC.

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Turnovers do happen, but with Newton, the rate is simply far higher than it should be, if you are going to place him in elite company. I expect and hope that this will go down as he matures and learns, but it's not out of the question he has some of the same issues that plagued Cunningham and that still bother Vick. You write off the importance of turnovers far too quickly with a quarterback.

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I must say, you might be the first person in the history of the universe to use the "Dan Marino winning" argument. Typically a mark against him, since his teams could never close the deal...

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Lifted out of context, sure. You'll note I went on to knock Marino's off the chart stats when it came to comparing him to all time greats. The point is that when Newton hasn't even been able to approach a regular season rookie winning rate of a guy like Marino, hardly a renown winner, it is ridiculous to start crowning him as a member of the NFL elite.

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No, it's pointless because unless you want to look at every single sack, it's impossible to point to where the fault lies regarding the sacks. There are times when QBs have zero chance to avoid sacks.

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Actually, it's not pointless. It's a gloss over point, and one of the big negatives right now with Newton, just as it became a huge negative for Marino as his career went on; post '91 or so, he really regressed as a quarterback because he left his team in a lot of 2nd and 3rd and longs with his immobility. Marino doesn't get a pass for that, and neither should Newton now, particularly when he has shown a penchant for turning the ball over, too. You do take the bad with the good, but right now, the bad is worth noting, and not blowing off.

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So if he keeps pace, which he's shown no sign of not, and gets the 4,000, 500 yards rushing and accounts for 40 TDs where does that rank on your all-time rookie years?

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Top 5. The rules changes are a big thing, but it's not like his season is without merit, or without being deserving of great appreciation.
18 touchdowns in 8 games is 36 in a year, not 40, as an aside.

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What, exactly have I overstated?

I said his numbers were comparable to Marino's rookie year. I didn't say better. I didn't say best ever. Comparable.

As it stands, if the season ended tomorrow, he will have accounted for 500 more yards of offense, including 200 more passing yards on fewer attempts, 18 total TDs, and 11 total turnovers (the two fumbles he lost this past weekend were the first two he's actually lost).

So, here are the actual lines:

Cam: 2,712 total yards, 18 TDs, 11 Turnovers, 60.6%, averaging 299 pypg, 39.9 rypg, 7.7 AY/A, 13.8 Y/C.

Marino: 2,255 total yards, 22 TDs, 9 turnovers, 58.2%, averaging 200 pypg, 4.1 rypg, 7.9 AY/A, 12.8 Y/C.

To me, seems pretty comparable. But you are going to lump in wins. I took a look at the schedule for fun, 1983 Miami allowed 24+ points only 4 times in 16 games. They were 2-2 in those games.

2011 Carolina has allowed 24 points in 6 of their 8 games (and 20 in another). They are 0-6 in those games. Carolina's 6 losses are to @Arizona (bad loss), Green Bay, @Chicago, New Orleans, @Atlanta and Minnesota. That's 4 playoff teams from the previous year, including the SB Champion. Not like his team is losing to Cleveland and Miami.

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They're not comparable, no. One is remarkable, the other is very very good.

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One final point, since you made a comment about "the new rules." I agree, it's generally best to compare how players perform against their era.

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The '83 Dolphins were 19th in passing offense, 13th in rushing offense, and 7th in scoring.

The '11 Panthers are 2nd in passing offense, 5th in rushing offense, and 7th in scoring.

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Yet you don't provide any context there. Even dissecting your favored numbers, why is scoring offense lagging behind? You can see from your own numbers that the Dolphins outperformed their numbers by being remarkably effective at scoring the football.

Cam's enjoying a great season, but trying so hard to make it something that it's not is going to lead to his Romoization, which would be a shame for a fine quarterback who deserves better.

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Cam was a highly rated passer

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It's easy to be a highly rated passer in that type of offense.

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Person B: Gets caught cheating 3 times at his university.

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And yet Blaine Gabbert had his knob slobbered by scouts and media alike as being the most "pro ready" of the prospects in the last draft.

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You saying Gabbert ran the same offense as Newton in college? He had 221 rushing attempts in 3 years combined. Newton had 264 last year at Auburn

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On a more serious note, Cam's numbers are terrific, but he does have the slight benefit of playing more catchup football than most.

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You do realize he's done more in the 1st half in most of his games than the 2nd half, right?

:inb4argumentmorphshesachokerandcantcloseitout:

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You do realize he's done more in the 1st half in most of his games than the 2nd half, right? :inb4argumentmorphshesachokerandcantcloseitout:

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The central point of my statement is that Cam's frequency stats are better than his rate stats due to his large number of attempts (3rd in the NFL). His completion percentage is mediocre (T-18th), but his average ypc is an impressive 8.3 (T-4th). He is having a terrific year, no doubt. All I am saying that he is a benefactor of an offense that passes a lot (likely because it needs to). In no way does that take away from his performance. All it does is show the value of rate stats if frequencies are uneven.

I am not a Cam Newton basher by any means. I do not irrationally hate him.

He's not. Cam will be the better nfl qb. Luck=Joey Harrington