re: The Cavs PnR Problem

Okay, if we're going to ignore statistics(and even ignore Hawks and Raptors have been very good defensive teams), Frye's shooting has essentially eliminated all shot blocking presence. Bron and RJ have been playing elite off the ball, with Delly/Bron being elite decision makers.

Defensively they've either completely overwhelmed second units due to personnel advantages or overwhelmed mix matched units with fresh legs and energy level. Bron and Shumpert have been able to cheat into passing lanes while using elite athleticism on recovery. RJ has done pretty well on that end, and Dellys always been a pretty good defender.

Transition wise you've had all capable passers with all being capable finishers/3 point shooters. Obviously some being elite in those aspects.

Im not even sure who you're talking about as the PF. But defensively you're taking away ezili's shot blocking presence. Your making Iggy/Barnes/whoever follow around Bron/Shumpert/RJ on cuts or stick with them on the 3 pt line(or Bron at post). And on the other end you just don't have the shooting to match as is.

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Okay, if we're going to ignore statistics(and even ignore Hawks and Raptors have been very good defensive teams), Frye's shooting has essentially eliminated all shot blocking presence. Bron and RJ have been playing elite off the ball, with Delly/Bron being elite decision makers.

Defensively they've either completely overwhelmed second units due to personnel advantages or overwhelmed mix matched units with fresh legs and energy level. Bron and Shumpert have been able to cheat into passing lanes while using elite athleticism on recovery. RJ has done pretty well on that end, and Dellys always been a pretty good defender.

Transition wise you've had all capable passers with all being capable finishers/3 point shooters. Obviously some being elite in those aspects.

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Your sample size to make these assertions is a hobbled Raptors, a Hawks team and Detroit. I agree the Cavs second unit is good, but incredible? A clear advantage over the Warriors? Don't agree with you there.

That sample size is not exactly world beaters. Again, GS is fielding a max center, a finals MVP that just helped get them over the hump defending Durant, a starting caliber PG and PF and all of them are two way players. That is far and away better then ANYTHING this Cavs unit has faced this post season.

The issue the Cavs have is they have a number of utility players. Frye is a spot up shooter and a defensive liability. Without offensive rebounds Thompson is a net zero on offense. Shumpert is not much of an offensive threat. Jefferson has been solid but Im not sure the Warriors are shaking at him beating them.

Lets also keep in mind you are pumping up a unit that will not get a ton of burn.

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The issue the Cavs have is they have a number of utility players. Frye is a spot up shooter and a defensive liability. Without offensive rebounds Thompson is a net zero on offense. Shumpert is not much of an offensive threat. Jefferson has been solid but Im not sure the Warriors are shaking at him beating them.

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Thompson isn't in this unit. Clearly you are confused.

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also keep in mind you are pumping up a unit that will not get a ton of burn.

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This unit has been starting the 2nd and 4th qtr ever since the Hawks series.

I'm not sure what game they started playing it, but we're definitely over 10 so the line up has seen considerable run against diverse match ups and still has insane numbers across the board.

Your looking at the players individually. The greatest strength in that unit is your making Bron the best small ball 4 in the game and surrounding him by pieces that compliment him perfectly. Add to that Bron is the most well rested he's been and able to exert himself at the defensive end. Obviously he'll have to play a good bit more this series, but should still be carrying much less off the offensive load he's used to.

Lue tried putting that unit subbing in Kyrie for Bron and it was terrible.

GS's bench by itself isn't that incredible. It's strength is they're able to rotate in different players with their main guys and cause some serious match up problems with their line ups. As I've posted before the Cavs(more so than anyone else GS has played) have the personnel to do the same. Remains to be seen if Lue can make the required adjustments.

I'm not sure what game they started playing it, but we're definitely over 10 so the line up has seen considerable run against diverse match ups and still has insane numbers across the board.

Your looking at the players individually. The greatest strength in that unit is your making Bron the best small ball 4 in the game and surrounding him by pieces that compliment him perfectly. Add to that Bron is the most well rested he's been and able to exert himself at the defensive end. Obviously he'll have to play a good bit more this series, but should still be carrying much less off the offensive load he's used to.

Lue tried putting that unit subbing in Kyrie for Bron and it was terrible.

GS's bench by itself isn't that incredible. It's strength is they're able to rotate in different players with their main guys and cause some serious match up problems with their line ups. As I've posted before the Cavs(more so than anyone else GS has played) have the personnel to do the same. Remains to be seen if Lue can make the required adjustments.

He did it in game 4 vs the Raptors trying to get Bron some extra rest.

you can cherry pick what you want but one thing that is not up for debate. Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love defended Pick and Roll will yield exactly 1.2 points per possession, which is the worst in the entire NBA for 2015-2016. Per Zack Lowe

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I'm not sure what game they started playing it, but we're definitely over 10 so the line up has seen considerable run against diverse match ups and still has insane numbers across the board.

Your looking at the players individually. The greatest strength in that unit is your making Bron the best small ball 4 in the game and surrounding him by pieces that compliment him perfectly. Add to that Bron is the most well rested he's been and able to exert himself at the defensive end. Obviously he'll have to play a good bit more this series, but should still be carrying much less off the offensive load he's used to.

Lue tried putting that unit subbing in Kyrie for Bron and it was terrible.

GS's bench by itself isn't that incredible. It's strength is they're able to rotate in different players with their main guys and cause some serious match up problems with their line ups. As I've posted before the Cavs(more so than anyone else GS has played) have the personnel to do the same. Remains to be seen if Lue can make the required adjustments.

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This cherry picking and selective bias is getting old.

Their small ball unit is not going to be better then what the Thunder just threw at them. They don't have the personal. Jeff Van Gundy and Zach Lowe just did a podcast and spent ten minutes dissecting that. They introduce clear liabilities in every possible lineup they can throw as a counter.

The Cavs have some solid utility players but their bench isnt giving you what the Warriors get with Ezelli, Livingston and most importantly Iggy.

The Warriors have the better individual pieces as a second unit and the better lineup flexibility and overall strength with shifting them in with starters. The Cavs have beaten up on scrub eastern teams, The Warriors second unit has proven itself all season. It regularly closed out games and helped get them over the Portland Trailblazers who you all are not giving nearly enough credit for how well they played.

Though it is interesting watching cavs fans finding their best argument to try and make an analytical case that the Cavs have an advantage is by pumping up their 6-9th bench guys. Completely trying to deflect from the 6000LB gorilla in my OP.

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3 fringe starters or starters on bad teams are not the same as "3 starters". Cleveland have a couple of "fringe starters" on their 2nd unit as well, but they have LeBron who far outweighs everything else.

Nobody is denying GS's 2nd unit's defensive prowness, but their offense drops off drastically when they come in. something like 120-130 ORTG from the starters to high 90s-low 100s, that is a vast difference and isn't good at all.

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Iggy is a FINALS MVP. He would start on A LOT of good teams. Quit being ridiculous. Ezelli would be a better center then a lot of starting centers right now.

Livingston would be fringe but he could immediately go to Utah, Milwaukee, Brooklyn, NY, Philly and Dallas and start. Thats just off the top of my head.

You Cavs fans are ridiculous. I kinda want to see CLE get a ring but you guys make me almost want to root for GS out of annoyance. Talking about Frye, Jefferson, Shumpert and Delly like they are the 2013 Spurs bench or something. They have strengths and weaknesses and have benefitted from an easy path to the finals you all are WAAAAYYY overvaluing.