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Started By
Message
Pitching: Today vs 20 Years Ago
Posted on 7/30/22 at 5:42 pm
Posted on 7/30/22 at 5:42 pm
It goes without saying, but pitching still matters in baseball, but it seems that the mentality has changed. Which era had better ptiching?
Twenty Years Ago:
1) Starters usually went 7+
2) Closers were expected to shut the other team down; we will never see 84 consecutive saves. Guys like Gagne, Lidge (until Pujols wrecked him), Rivera (GOAT Closer) are no longer
3) Relievers usally had better ERA's than starters (no surprise since starters went longer)
4) Pitchers did not throw as hard, and had fewer pitches in their arsenal.
5)Teams played small ball a lot more
Now:
1) You might have two or three starters, then you have your "openers". Starters don't usually go more than 6.
2) Pitchers are throwing harder, and thanks to the "Three True Outcomes" strikeouts are much higher.
3) Middle Relief is no longer looked down upon; they are expected to hold down the fort in the middle innings.
4) Unlike 20 years ago, closers are based on the lineup (if the top of the order is up in the eighth, your "closer" will be up in the eighth instead).
5) Closers don't go everyday
6) Bullpen is far more important
7) There are several, if not many starters who have a 5+ career ERA and 1.2+ WHIP. A lot more arms being used so we see a lot of guys being called up. It is not uncommon to see guys with 9+ ERA pitching
Homeruns are up, but so are strikeouts. Hitter appear to be better today, despite the TTO approach.
Thoughts?
Twenty Years Ago:
1) Starters usually went 7+
2) Closers were expected to shut the other team down; we will never see 84 consecutive saves. Guys like Gagne, Lidge (until Pujols wrecked him), Rivera (GOAT Closer) are no longer
3) Relievers usally had better ERA's than starters (no surprise since starters went longer)
4) Pitchers did not throw as hard, and had fewer pitches in their arsenal.
5)Teams played small ball a lot more
Now:
1) You might have two or three starters, then you have your "openers". Starters don't usually go more than 6.
2) Pitchers are throwing harder, and thanks to the "Three True Outcomes" strikeouts are much higher.
3) Middle Relief is no longer looked down upon; they are expected to hold down the fort in the middle innings.
4) Unlike 20 years ago, closers are based on the lineup (if the top of the order is up in the eighth, your "closer" will be up in the eighth instead).
5) Closers don't go everyday
6) Bullpen is far more important
7) There are several, if not many starters who have a 5+ career ERA and 1.2+ WHIP. A lot more arms being used so we see a lot of guys being called up. It is not uncommon to see guys with 9+ ERA pitching
Homeruns are up, but so are strikeouts. Hitter appear to be better today, despite the TTO approach.
Thoughts?
This post was edited on 7/30/22 at 5:43 pm
Posted on 7/30/22 at 5:44 pm to littleavery1948
What does this have to do with Aaron Judge?
Posted on 7/30/22 at 5:46 pm to littleavery1948
quote:
Thoughts?
All three "true outcomes" are down this season.
Might be the balls.
Posted on 7/30/22 at 5:49 pm to littleavery1948
Strikeouts don't advance runners
Posted on 7/30/22 at 5:49 pm to littleavery1948
quote:
There are several, if not many starters who have a 5+ career ERA and 1.2+ WHIP. A lot more arms being used so we see a lot of guys being called up. It is not uncommon to see guys with 9+ ERA pitching
You’re contradicting your other point about bullpen guys having lower ERAs because they throw less. If starters are throwing less, shouldn’t their ERAs go down?
Posted on 7/30/22 at 5:58 pm to littleavery1948
quote:
It goes without saying, but pitching still matters in baseball, but it seems that the mentality has changed. Which era had better ptiching?
Why are pitchers throwing so much harder as a general rule? Why is 95-100 normal? Why are so many pitchers blowing out their arms and having Tommy John surgery? Even at the high school level. It's like pitchers know it's coming and can't wait until they get back better than ever.
You can't teach speed. You can get the most out of what you have through good technique but you can't manufacture speed beyond genetics?
Unless.................. unless, you are willing to dope. That's where all this newfound incredible speed is coming from that has passed all historical data and tradition. And there are over 100 years of data that says something is different.
Posted on 7/30/22 at 6:00 pm to bamameister
Which era of pitching do you guys think is better?
Posted on 7/30/22 at 6:01 pm to littleavery1948
Third time through the lineup has become a big deal and IMHO seems more of a thing than pitch count. The stat geeks believe and with data to support that very few pitchers maintain effectiveness the third time through a lineup.
Posted on 7/30/22 at 6:09 pm to littleavery1948
Pitching is almost certainly tougher on hitters now. Pitchers throw harder. Pitchers throw their best pitches at a much higher percentage.
20 years ago, a guy throwing 100 with a wipeout slider was a big deal. Now that’s like every teams 4th reliever.
20 years ago, a guy throwing 100 with a wipeout slider was a big deal. Now that’s like every teams 4th reliever.
Posted on 7/30/22 at 6:11 pm to littleavery1948
we have guys who throw wipeout breaking balls combined with triple digit fastballs with movement.....on every team
yea, pitching is better today
yea, pitching is better today
Posted on 7/30/22 at 6:15 pm to littleavery1948
quote:
Which era of pitching do you guys think is better?
The same era for the NBA, college football and basketball, NFL, MLB, and pro golf.
NOW!!!!!!
Posted on 7/30/22 at 6:19 pm to littleavery1948
We had a guy at the back end of the rotation like a month ago with a 20+ ERA after 3-4 starts lol. Rangers for those wondering.
He’s sub 6 now. A true turn around.
He’s sub 6 now. A true turn around.
This post was edited on 7/30/22 at 6:20 pm
Posted on 7/30/22 at 6:41 pm to littleavery1948
All I know that it is a fact that we will never see 4 20 game winners on one staff in one season. Hell even getting A20 game winner will be tough to do.
Posted on 7/30/22 at 7:02 pm to littleavery1948
If having your starter go 7+ innings was the key to success, them every team would do it. Reality is having four starters that can do that is not feasible. Either talent is not there or that money is best spent elsewhere. I personally like the mismatch pitching rotations. The strategy is fun to watch.
This post was edited on 7/30/22 at 7:03 pm
Posted on 7/30/22 at 7:15 pm to WestCoastAg
The gun is different too, can’t forget that. Adds a couple mph to the speed.
Posted on 7/30/22 at 7:17 pm to littleavery1948
You had guys like Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddux and the Big Unit putting up better numbers vs steroid juiced offenses. No comparison that era had better pitching.
Posted on 7/30/22 at 7:45 pm to bamameister
quote:No. Pitchers are specifically training now to throw as hard as possible. They are training in ways that has never been done in the past. That is the reason. And this new way of training is pushing their limits to the point that they eventually need Tommy John surgery.
Unless.................. unless, you are willing to dope. That's where all this newfound incredible speed is coming from that has passed all historical data and tradition. And there are over 100 years of data that says something is different.
Posted on 7/31/22 at 9:42 am to PrimeTime Money
quote:
They are training in ways that has never been done in the past.
And what is this "secret training" you speak of? Amazing that in over 100 years of major league baseball they just couldn't figure out how to throw fast.
Posted on 7/31/22 at 1:36 pm to littleavery1948
Obviously the pitching is better and they are throwing harder on average but it's worth noting that the stated mph thrown based on radar guns 22 years ago was like 6% lower than what radar guns today show.
Radar guns today will show velocity right after it comes out of the hand. 22 years ago it was getting a number after the ball had slowed down a little.
Nolan Ryan was probably often throwing 105-107 instead of the 99-100 that he is known for.
Radar guns today will show velocity right after it comes out of the hand. 22 years ago it was getting a number after the ball had slowed down a little.
Nolan Ryan was probably often throwing 105-107 instead of the 99-100 that he is known for.
Posted on 7/31/22 at 4:38 pm to bamameister
It's more like teams are promoting and grooming their hard throwers.
Back in the day, guys who knew how to pitch got promoted ahead of guys who just threw hard.
Back in the day, guys who knew how to pitch got promoted ahead of guys who just threw hard.
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