re: PER and Kobe Bryant

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Big Z: Obviously. I wasn't the tard that implied his retirement = him sucking post Lebron. At least I pointed out McKie and Jackson's departure could be interpreted as retirement - which you either didn't read or ignored. That doesn't negate the fact Big Z was better before Lebron.

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Gonna finish this up:
97-98: 29 minutes; (11 fga) 52/25/76.2; 8.8rpg, 0.9apg, 1.8topg, 0.6spg, 1.6bpg, 13.9ppg

98-99: injured
99-00: injured
00-01: injured

01-02: 21.5 minutes; (9fga) 43/0/75; 5.4rpg, 1.1apg, 1.5topg, 0.3spg, 1.4bpg, 11.1ppg

02-03: 30 minutes; (14fga) 44/0/78; 7.5rpg, 1.6apg, 2.6topg, 0.7spg, 1.9bpg, 17.2ppg

Lebron's arrival:
03-04: 31.5 minutes; (12fga) 48/28.6/75; 8.1rpg, 1.3apg, 2.0topg, 0.5spg, 2.5bpg, 15.3ppg

04-05: 33.5 minutes; (12.6fga) 47/28.6/80; 8.6rpg, 1.3apg, 2.4topg, 0.7spg, 2.1bpg, 16.9ppg

Do I need to continue to show he's playing better after lebron?

Lets just continue for kicks and giggles to make you look even dumber.

02-03: PER 19.31; PER36 20.6ppg/9.0rpg/1.9apg/0.8spg/2.3bpg

03-04: PER 20.28; PER36 17.5ppg/9.3rpg/1.9apg/0.6spg/2.9bpg

04-05: PER 19.59; PER36 18.2ppg/9.3rpg/1.4apg/0.7spg/2.3bpg

05-06: PER 21.98; PER36 19.2ppg/9.3rpg/1.4apg/0.6spg/2.4bpg

His PER36/PER actually go up slightly a few years after that too. so no, wrong.

You left out a few players that Kobe played with too. How about Caron Butler? Kobe signed a 7yr 136.4mil contract (19.5mil/yr average) in '04.

Salary Cap
2004: 43.87million
2005: 49.5million
2006: 53.135million
2007: 55.630million
2008: 58.68million
2009: 57.7 million

for 2 of the 3 bad years kobe, brian grant, and lamar odom ate up roughly 37mil/40mil. who's fault was that? Why are the lakers not going to win for the remaining years of kobe's contract? Oh wait, its because he takes majority of it up!

Here are two:

Z: we already proved before lebron and after, his PER were up

Mo Williams:
Before Lebron
06-07: PER 15.05
07-08: PER 16.35

During Lebron
08-09: PER 17.23
09-10: PER 17.25

Lebron leaves
10-11: PER 16.18
11-12: PER 13.93

And it's easy to hate on Pau now but I remember like it was yesterday, he was THE MAN during the time the Lakers were after him. I'm pretty sure he was considered the best center without a doubt. Kobe has been a dickrider for most of his career.

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Here are two:

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What about
Carlos Boozer,
Dwyane Wade,
Chris Bosh,
Ray Allen,
Juwan Howard,
Antawn Jamison,
Haslem,
Rashard Lewis,
Chris Anderson,
Larry Hughes,
Shane Battier,
James Jones,
Mike Miller,
Carlos Arroyo,
Jerry Stackhouse,
Shaq,
Erick Dampier,
Eddie House,
Mike Bibby,
Jamaal Magloire,
Eric Snow,
Anderson Varejao,
Damon Jones,
Donyell Marshall,
Ronald Murray,
Chris Mihm (better overall PER with KB than LBJ)
Danny Green,
J.J. Hickson,
Daniel Gibson,
Cedrick Jackson,
Leon Powe,
Darnell Jackson,
Jamario Moon,
Etc,
Etc,
Etc

You'd think ONE of these guys would have had a more efficient year given how efficient and easy Lebron makes everything. But alas, despite many (not all) of these guys being in their primes it never happened. They played better without him.

PER black hole.

You blabber on and on about not using PER, but you use it to defend a point only when it benefits you instead of using other measures like PER36 or eFG% where it makes you look ridiculous.

Carlos Boozer played well in Lebron's 1st year (16/11) and if it wasn't for a contract mishap with Utah, he would've came back. At the time, he was a 2nd year player in his now 12 year career. of course he's going to have lower stats

PER
02-03: 16.97
03-04: 20.84 (his one and only season w/ LeBron)
04-05: 19.26

as his game progressed, his PER went up. Apparently because players don't get better in their 3-4-5, etc. years

Notice the minor dip after he left?

Dwade's usage rating was extremely high on those miami teams before LeBron came along. He didn't have a scrub squad, but they weren't at the prime of their careers either. An out of prime jermaine oneal, michael beasley who put up better numbers outside of miami (so dwade must be a black hole too right?), udonis haslem, richardson, and carlos arroyo

Chris Bosh: same story, different song. Going from the #1 option on a team to the #3 option.

Those 2 specifically compare it to...iono the boston big 3? notice the KG, PP, RA before and after boston formed the big 3. Certain players haev to give more than the others.

RA: 26ppg to 17ppg; 21.70 PER to 16.60 PER
PP: 25ppg to 20ppg; 21.73 PER to 19.85 PER
KG: 22ppg to 19ppg; 24.20 PER to 25.42 PER

Notice how the guy that dropped the least in ppg was also the one of the 3 to go up in PER? LeBron was the guy, Dwade and Cbosh were the two to take the hit.

You love adding Ray Allen to hit LBJ, but his age has been going up and usg rate have been slowly declining along with his PER. His last season of boston 14.8 PER, 1st season with miami was 14.7 such a big difference!

Juwan Howard; you mean the same juwan howard who was at the tail end of his career and went to miami to purely ring chase?! '94 draft and 16 years later he's supposed to be tip top shape for a 37 year old center.

Antawn Jamison, the same guy who put up 16.7[w/ lebron] 16.8, 16.1, 15.3, and 7.9[w/o lebron] PER. Oh look at the trend the two years before he came to cleveland. 20.6 to 17.5, its called decline.

Udonis Haslem: the same guy who plays the same position as...oh wait Chris Bosh has lows in minutes, fga, etc. That surely was LeBron's fault. Not the logjam that was Bosh.

Rashard Lewis: I'm tired of looking up the same numbers for declining players when they decide to ring chase.

Chris anderson: who's per 36 stayed about the same, fg% went up, PER was still above his total average.

Larry Hughes: argued about that 5 pages or whatnot ago.

Shane Battier: at the age of 33, putting up the same PER as in 2008, but a his highest eFG ever just last year.

James Jones: No way. the same james jones with an ~8.5 PER and .480-.517 eFG before LeBron got there to...11.1-9.7-8.1-19.3 PER shooting a career .635 eFG this year!! man.

Mike Miller: The same mike miller who put up 13.5 PER, .591 eFG just last year that he hasn't put up #s like that since around 2004!? oh man.

Arroyo: the same arroyo who put up a 9.5 PER and .517 eFG in Miami, went to Boston later that year and put up 6.7 PER and .447 eFG to only be out of the NBA right after?

We get where this is going. You notice how majority of these former 'big name' players went to LeBron in the twilight of their careers to ring chase. Some failed and some succeeded with him.

When you get these players who previously played 20 minutes a game and they go from 20mpg-30mpg production to <10mpg, it is pretty easy to see why their PER fluctuates or drops.

if you wanna continue though, feel free.

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Anybody that thinks Kobe is better than LBJ at making others better is flat out crazy. LBJ career 47 triple doubles Kobe 19 What's your take on that Knight?

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He has teammates that can hit shots when he passes. He plays more of a rebounding position?

5 rings without running to a super team. Thoughts?

Anyone with half a brain can tell you a mid 20s player will have better individual #s than when they're in their mid 30s.

You use PER to defend yourself when it's relevant, that's all it is.

When this thread started, it was all about how Kobe has a low PER and how inefficient he is. You ride his dick so hard that you said:

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Because PER is a Monday Morning Quarterback stat. "Efficiency" doesn't determine greatness. It determines efficiency. Overcoming odds with great feats of great difficulty determine greatness and Kobe's career epitomizes that. From his burst on the scene being the first to openly challenge Jordan's shadow, to his fall from grace, his years as the NBA's biggest villian to rising from the ashes to be champion again...all the while demanding to be the alpha....never running from a challenge.

His insane degree of difficulty with his shots is a snap shot of his career. Efficient, maybe not...but greater than seeking the easy route.

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So a lot of those players that went to LeBron were inefficient because they took wild shots because they wanted a challenge and wanted to rise from the ashes. Not because LeBron made them inefficient. Gotcha.


How about this one for how much better LeBron is compared to your beloved cripple.

Kobe's win share/48 is .182, ortg 111, drtg 105
Lebron's win share/48 is .243, ortg 116, drtg 102

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Lebron already has developed a pretty damn good jump shot. Are we really acting like Kobe was that great of a shooter? Did that bum ever have a single season over 50%?

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Meh, he's an average jump shooter. I posted it in some other thread but he's shooting 57% because over half of his made shots come at the rim. Kobe is a better overall jump shooter, but that's the only thing he's better at

But LeBron > Kobe as an all around player

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Result: he won and won a lot in a very competitive conference. Therefore greatness.

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What about the years without Shaq or Gasol?

Yea I know, bosh, wade, Allen

Every star has to have other players to win championships. You act as if it didn't matter who kobe was playing with because he made everyone better all the time.....except for the years without Shaq or Gasol

For their careers thus far, Kobe is definitely the better shooter. Doesn't mean LeBron can't improve or catch up. Compare his career averages to Miami years.

Kobe:
0-3ft; 63.5%
3-10ft; 45.2%
10-16ft; 44.5%
16<3pt; 40.6%
3pt; 33.6%

LeBron:
0-3ft; 72.5%
3-10ft; 43.6%
10-16ft; 35.7%
16<3pt; 38.9%
3pt; 34.0%

Lebron in Miami:
0-3ft; 77.2%
3-10ft; 49.3%
10-16ft; 43.8%
16<3pt; 42.0%
3pt; 36.7%