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re: Official French Open Discussion Thread
Posted on 6/5/12 at 8:53 pm to bobbyray21
Posted on 6/5/12 at 8:53 pm to bobbyray21
The "alien test" is not exactly a perfect formula for discussing best ever. Actually a bunch of bullshite. Seles in her prime rips Serena a knew one. Graf, Everett, Martina do as well. Put Serena with their equipment and she is toast.
Simple stats like most wins, most finals, most semis, weeks at #1, etc is easy enough to discuss one's history. Primes? I'll take all four I mentioned over Serena all day every day.
SI is not the sports bible of the universe. Maybe they wrote the article feeling the need to have a black woman in the discussion simply because of race. You know, tennis is a "white" sport. They feel the need to throw her in there out of fairness.
Simple stats like most wins, most finals, most semis, weeks at #1, etc is easy enough to discuss one's history. Primes? I'll take all four I mentioned over Serena all day every day.
SI is not the sports bible of the universe. Maybe they wrote the article feeling the need to have a black woman in the discussion simply because of race. You know, tennis is a "white" sport. They feel the need to throw her in there out of fairness.
This post was edited on 6/5/12 at 8:54 pm
5
Posted on 6/5/12 at 9:04 pm to bobbyray21
We're watching two different players. We'll see but I predict top 10 by end of 2013.
Posted on 6/5/12 at 9:46 pm to bobbyray21
I grew up playing tennis with Ryan's dad and hit/played once or twice with Ryan before he moved out of Shreveport around age 11. I follow him religiously and think his serve, volley, forehand and movement are all world class (all sufficient to be a top 5 or 10 player).
Since he was a very young child, those who know a little tennis around here have always been of the opinion that his backhand would hold him back. He has never released the racket head -- rolling the left hand over the right on the two- hander. Instead, it is more like a sound putting stroke with no breakdown of the wrist. It is therefore hard to generate mush racket speed or topspin. He hardly ever hits an effective penetrating down the line two hander. The limited motion of the stroke dictates a cross court shot where the torso pulls to simulate a release. His down the line attempts tend to migrate towards the center of the court letting his opponents back into points and failing to keep them more honest in their positioning.
He has developed a much better slice back hand which can be effective. He was using it to great effect against Simon until crunch time when he forgot all about taking pace off the ball as a wise strategy against Simon and simply started trying to out hit him - just what a counter puncher like Simon wants.
This long term technical flaw pales in comparison to his mentality which is the only thing holding him out of the top 20.
When it comes to crunch time, Ryan's court positioning suffers. He moves further back in the court and tries to simply retrieve and be consistent. At this level, the winners are those that can still play with controlled aggression at crunch time like Djok did today. Ryan wants it so bad that he cannot treat those two impostors, triumph and disaster, just the same.
To compound the problem, when the retrieving defender thing fails, he knee jerks into a go for broke, unforced error machine and then gets steam rolled by the better players.
To get where he wants to go, he needs to commit more to forward positioning including serve and volley about 20% of the time - especially kick serves to the add court - his is as good as any out there. The slice backhand also needs to develop into an approach shot to put pressure on his opponent.
He has to learn to forget the last point and understand that forward movement/approaching the net sometimes results in getting passed. He will sometimes never go forward once his opponent rips a pass off a quality approach. As McEnroe proved, it's the cumulative stress that is put on an opponent that is important. If he doesn't come in more, good players will break down that backhand or keep him out there until his head imploded. Take more chances on return games so that we get more breaks with less effort. Use the serve, volley, forehand and energy to make sure you hold serve.
I know. Tl;dr
Since he was a very young child, those who know a little tennis around here have always been of the opinion that his backhand would hold him back. He has never released the racket head -- rolling the left hand over the right on the two- hander. Instead, it is more like a sound putting stroke with no breakdown of the wrist. It is therefore hard to generate mush racket speed or topspin. He hardly ever hits an effective penetrating down the line two hander. The limited motion of the stroke dictates a cross court shot where the torso pulls to simulate a release. His down the line attempts tend to migrate towards the center of the court letting his opponents back into points and failing to keep them more honest in their positioning.
He has developed a much better slice back hand which can be effective. He was using it to great effect against Simon until crunch time when he forgot all about taking pace off the ball as a wise strategy against Simon and simply started trying to out hit him - just what a counter puncher like Simon wants.
This long term technical flaw pales in comparison to his mentality which is the only thing holding him out of the top 20.
When it comes to crunch time, Ryan's court positioning suffers. He moves further back in the court and tries to simply retrieve and be consistent. At this level, the winners are those that can still play with controlled aggression at crunch time like Djok did today. Ryan wants it so bad that he cannot treat those two impostors, triumph and disaster, just the same.
To compound the problem, when the retrieving defender thing fails, he knee jerks into a go for broke, unforced error machine and then gets steam rolled by the better players.
To get where he wants to go, he needs to commit more to forward positioning including serve and volley about 20% of the time - especially kick serves to the add court - his is as good as any out there. The slice backhand also needs to develop into an approach shot to put pressure on his opponent.
He has to learn to forget the last point and understand that forward movement/approaching the net sometimes results in getting passed. He will sometimes never go forward once his opponent rips a pass off a quality approach. As McEnroe proved, it's the cumulative stress that is put on an opponent that is important. If he doesn't come in more, good players will break down that backhand or keep him out there until his head imploded. Take more chances on return games so that we get more breaks with less effort. Use the serve, volley, forehand and energy to make sure you hold serve.
I know. Tl;dr
Posted on 6/6/12 at 7:50 am to DP40
quote:
The "alien test" is not exactly a perfect formula for discussing best ever. Actually a bunch of bullshite.
Elaborate on why it is bullshite.
Posted on 6/6/12 at 7:52 am to DP40
quote:
Seles in her prime rips Serena a knew one. Graf, Everett, Martina do as well. Put Serena with their equipment and she is toast.
Wrong.
Wrong, but debatable.
Outrageously wrong. Not even arguable.
Very clearly wrong.
How about we give them all modern equipment.
Posted on 6/6/12 at 7:53 am to DP40
quote:
I'll take all four I mentioned over Serena all day every day.
Then you'e simply stupid.
Posted on 6/6/12 at 8:18 am to DP40
quote:
SI is not the sports bible of the universe. Maybe they wrote the article feeling the need to have a black woman in the discussion simply because of race. You know, tennis is a "white" sport. They feel the need to throw her in there out of fairness
Don't think for a second that I'm appealing to SI as authority. Serena at her best isn't the best ever female player because SI said so. It's because she is. And I thought this before I read any such articles discussing it.
Rather, I mention the SI discussion because it is representative of literally dozens and dozens of other such articles and it thus illustrates the absurdity of you implying that a discussion of Serena as GOAT is absurd. If it weren't a completely legitimate question, it wouldn't be vehemently debated by every sports journalist and their cousin.
Oh wait...I bet it's because she's black, right?
Navratilova
quote:
Navratilova, who was also in attendance, called Serena's serve the best she has ever seen, which is saying something. U.S. Fed Cup captain Mary Joe Fernandez concurred.
BJK
quote:
King is convinced Serena will continue to climb the list and believes Williams has the ability to conclude her career as the Greatest Of All Time.
“I think it’s great. I think her next goal now should be to beat Chris and Martina’s 18 singles (majors), then thereafter she can go on to Steffi Graf (22 majors),” King told the media in Tuesday’s conference call to promote this season of World TeamTennis. “There’s no reason Serena Williams shouldn’t be the greatest woman player that’s ever played.”
“Every generation I think gets better usually,” King said. “Up to this time the greatest singles, doubles and mixed player has been Martina Navratilova. I think the greatest singles player up to this time has been Graf. There’s no reason that Serena can’t surpass some goals of people.”
Chris Evert
quote:
Chris Evert calls Serena Williams the favorite to win the U.S. Open and also says the 13-time Grand Slam champion’s career can be placed alongside those of 22-time Grand Slam winner Steffi Graf and 18-time Grand Slam winner Martina Navratilova.
"We saw her at Wimbledon, and I think even though she lost a close match to [Marion] Bartoli, Bartoli played out of her head," said Evert in an ESPN conference call. "I think that exceeded people's expectations, that Serena would do that well at Wimbledon after being out for a year and all her health issues. She committed herself. She practiced. She's won two tournaments. That's unbelievable. Not to undermine the rest of the field, but it just shows that she's head and shoulders above anybody else, again, when she's healthy.
"I'd put her right up there [as the greatest of all time] with Martina and Steffi. She's the best comeback player we've ever seen. If you look at the last 10 years, she's been out, she comes back. Even when she hasn't been in shape, she can still win a Grand Slam. She is an incredible athlete. She's got the power. She's got the speed. She's got the mental toughness. There isn't a chink in the armor there at all. Her health is her own worst enemy. Her health is her rival or competitor."
Posted on 6/6/12 at 8:19 am to DP40
quote:
Maybe they wrote the article feeling the need to have a black woman in the discussion simply because of race. You know, tennis is a "white" sport. They feel the need to throw her in there out of fairness.
Great stuff. The race card. Brilliant!
Posted on 6/6/12 at 8:19 am to bobbyray21
I just saw Sharapoca's arse cheek and panties.
Posted on 6/6/12 at 8:22 am to dunkelman
quote:
I grew up playing tennis with Ryan's dad and hit/played once or twice with Ryan before he moved out of Shreveport around age 11. I follow him religiously and think his serve, volley, forehand and movement are all world class (all sufficient to be a top 5 or 10 player).
Since he was a very young child, those who know a little tennis around here have always been of the opinion that his backhand would hold him back. He has never released the racket head -- rolling the left hand over the right on the two- hander. Instead, it is more like a sound putting stroke with no breakdown of the wrist. It is therefore hard to generate mush racket speed or topspin. He hardly ever hits an effective penetrating down the line two hander. The limited motion of the stroke dictates a cross court shot where the torso pulls to simulate a release. His down the line attempts tend to migrate towards the center of the court letting his opponents back into points and failing to keep them more honest in their positioning.
He has developed a much better slice back hand which can be effective. He was using it to great effect against Simon until crunch time when he forgot all about taking pace off the ball as a wise strategy against Simon and simply started trying to out hit him - just what a counter puncher like Simon wants.
This long term technical flaw pales in comparison to his mentality which is the only thing holding him out of the top 20.
When it comes to crunch time, Ryan's court positioning suffers. He moves further back in the court and tries to simply retrieve and be consistent. At this level, the winners are those that can still play with controlled aggression at crunch time like Djok did today. Ryan wants it so bad that he cannot treat those two impostors, triumph and disaster, just the same.
To compound the problem, when the retrieving defender thing fails, he knee jerks into a go for broke, unforced error machine and then gets steam rolled by the better players.
To get where he wants to go, he needs to commit more to forward positioning including serve and volley about 20% of the time - especially kick serves to the add court - his is as good as any out there. The slice backhand also needs to develop into an approach shot to put pressure on his opponent.
He has to learn to forget the last point and understand that forward movement/approaching the net sometimes results in getting passed. He will sometimes never go forward once his opponent rips a pass off a quality approach. As McEnroe proved, it's the cumulative stress that is put on an opponent that is important. If he doesn't come in more, good players will break down that backhand or keep him out there until his head imploded. Take more chances on return games so that we get more breaks with less effort. Use the serve, volley, forehand and energy to make sure you hold serve.
I know. Tl;dr
I read. Thanks for the analysis.
Posted on 6/6/12 at 8:25 am to tuptiger
quote:
We're watching two different players. We'll see but I predict top 10 by end of 2013.
I'd take this bet if it were offered.
Posted on 6/6/12 at 8:27 am to dunkelman
quote:
I grew up playing tennis with Ryan's dad and hit/played once or twice with Ryan before he moved out of Shreveport around age 11. I follow him religiously and think his serve, volley, forehand and movement are all world class (all sufficient to be a top 5 or 10 player).
Who do you think will be better: Ryan or his brother Christian?
Posted on 6/6/12 at 11:53 am to bobbyray21
The thought around here was always that Christian had more game -- in particular -- a backhand with the technical flaws I noted with regard to Ryan's backhand. Ryan is kinda the typical first child who is driven to succeed. Christian was perceived as having a lot more talent, but maybe not the drive. I now think that Ryan's drive is one of the things holding him back. Makes it difficult to perform when the need is greatest.
I spoke with their dad last week when he was in town and he told me that Christain is just now getting his health back. He was in about a 2 year struggle with what was initially though to be bone cancer, but it played out that one of his femurs got significantly infected and had to have surgery/extensive treatment/therapy. He's back playing again and has move back up to around 750 in the world. Would be really great for American tennis if one or both of these could really get it going as USA men's tennis is as down now as it has ever been.
I spoke with their dad last week when he was in town and he told me that Christain is just now getting his health back. He was in about a 2 year struggle with what was initially though to be bone cancer, but it played out that one of his femurs got significantly infected and had to have surgery/extensive treatment/therapy. He's back playing again and has move back up to around 750 in the world. Would be really great for American tennis if one or both of these could really get it going as USA men's tennis is as down now as it has ever been.
Posted on 6/6/12 at 11:57 am to bobbyray21
I'd take this bet too. I've heard Patrick McEnroe say that before. I just think the men's game is so damn deep that it's hard to get to the top 10 with some major flaws/issues unless you have a huge weapon/serve (e.g. Isner). If you think he's going to be top 10, name all the top 20 players he's beaten. I'm pretty sure it's not more than 1 if that. When you get to that level, they can expose the problems I reference.
Posted on 6/6/12 at 12:11 pm to bobbyray21
These conversations about GOAT are just stupid. All you can be is the greatest of your time. Things change. Rackets, Atheletes, everything. I was at a plantation the other day and the beds were about 6 feet long because people where so much smaller 200 years ago. You can't compare across wide spans of time. Was Laver the greatest of all time. That's an easy argument to make, but he was having a few beers after the match. Wouldn't work today.
Serena is great. I agree about her serve and I've never seen a greater competitor on the women's side. Steffi was great. Martina was great. That's it.
Saying that, I think that Serena perhaps didn't get as much out of her game as she could. Like Agassi, I think there were times where her desire waned a bit. Hell, that's natural. After McEnroe had the "greatest year" ever, he too lost his edge and never got back to that level of dominance. It happens in all sports (e.g. Tiger) when you've accomplished so much and have all the additional distractions of being "the man." Hell, I could have taken a set off of Borg when he tried toi make his "comeback" (0-13 record).
Just appreciate greatness when you see it. The rest is just opinions. Everyone's got one . . .
P.S. Nice call on the Luxilon and 16 gauge. It's in my Prestige Pros.
Serena is great. I agree about her serve and I've never seen a greater competitor on the women's side. Steffi was great. Martina was great. That's it.
Saying that, I think that Serena perhaps didn't get as much out of her game as she could. Like Agassi, I think there were times where her desire waned a bit. Hell, that's natural. After McEnroe had the "greatest year" ever, he too lost his edge and never got back to that level of dominance. It happens in all sports (e.g. Tiger) when you've accomplished so much and have all the additional distractions of being "the man." Hell, I could have taken a set off of Borg when he tried toi make his "comeback" (0-13 record).
Just appreciate greatness when you see it. The rest is just opinions. Everyone's got one . . .
P.S. Nice call on the Luxilon and 16 gauge. It's in my Prestige Pros.
Posted on 6/6/12 at 7:52 pm to dunkelman
It's not more than one. He just needs to get over the proverbial hump. He needs to close out the second sets at majors to take a two love lead instead of being at square one.
Hes had Murray, Simon, and Ferrer on their heels in early round play at the majors. He should have beaten Simon at the Feench. He had the match on his racket, and he just failed to come up with the big shot.
That comes with confidence, which comes with more experience.
He has come out guns blazing, and when he doesn't fully capitalize, he self destructs. I understand that frustration. I've been there before. I just didn't have an endless supply of racquets to smash
Hes had Murray, Simon, and Ferrer on their heels in early round play at the majors. He should have beaten Simon at the Feench. He had the match on his racket, and he just failed to come up with the big shot.
That comes with confidence, which comes with more experience.
He has come out guns blazing, and when he doesn't fully capitalize, he self destructs. I understand that frustration. I've been there before. I just didn't have an endless supply of racquets to smash
This post was edited on 6/6/12 at 8:00 pm
Posted on 6/6/12 at 10:36 pm to tuptiger
I wish that were always the case. Repeatedly being unable to get over the hump can make the hump seem bigger than it it really is. I believe that some people are born a belief that they will make the 10 footer to win the major and other people just would like to believe they would make it if they got a chance or got enough chances. This is what you can't teach. Experience doesn't teach it to you. You either havebit or you don't.
I know lots of people that on a Tuesday at the club can shoot 5 or even 7 under par. You see them on the range next to then likes of David Toms and if you didn't know who the guys were, you would swear DT wasnthemlesser player. But, he believes that he willngetbit in the hole faster than that guy when all the lights are shining. You saw the difference I'm taking if you watched the 4th set of the Djok/Tsonga match.
Nobody wantsnthis kidnto go to the top more than I, but 40 years ofnplaying and watching this sport tell me that the combination of a mechanically unsund backhand and a mental approach that leads him to play his worst tennis when it really counts will hold him out of the upper echelon of the game.
He can play brilliantly in short spurts as you not. The test in these majors is long and the good players can whether the storm and wait for the implode. The is a reason a golf tournament is 72 holes. If it we're only 3 or 4 holes, I might get hot and beatbanyone on tour. I cannot sustain that level over 4 days and can't do it when it really counts. I believe that if were in there it would have come out already - at least on occasion.
His loss to Ferrer and his two loses are exemplars of what I'm saying. There was, in each match a moment of truth, a moment in which the Ryan was too hazily invested from an emotional standpoint. His tension lead to less than peak performance. So what? It happens. What he has not exhibited at all is thatbhe has the emotional shock absorbers to overcome the let down- the heart to dig even deeper and stay the course. Look at whonthe great champions have been over time. Who came from 50 something in the word after age 20 to develop into a champion? In this game, greatness is evident by now.
Again, even if he over this hump, that backhand will not allow him to go to the top 10. Liabilities aren't allowed. The best players will eventually break that side down.
I know lots of people that on a Tuesday at the club can shoot 5 or even 7 under par. You see them on the range next to then likes of David Toms and if you didn't know who the guys were, you would swear DT wasnthemlesser player. But, he believes that he willngetbit in the hole faster than that guy when all the lights are shining. You saw the difference I'm taking if you watched the 4th set of the Djok/Tsonga match.
Nobody wantsnthis kidnto go to the top more than I, but 40 years ofnplaying and watching this sport tell me that the combination of a mechanically unsund backhand and a mental approach that leads him to play his worst tennis when it really counts will hold him out of the upper echelon of the game.
He can play brilliantly in short spurts as you not. The test in these majors is long and the good players can whether the storm and wait for the implode. The is a reason a golf tournament is 72 holes. If it we're only 3 or 4 holes, I might get hot and beatbanyone on tour. I cannot sustain that level over 4 days and can't do it when it really counts. I believe that if were in there it would have come out already - at least on occasion.
His loss to Ferrer and his two loses are exemplars of what I'm saying. There was, in each match a moment of truth, a moment in which the Ryan was too hazily invested from an emotional standpoint. His tension lead to less than peak performance. So what? It happens. What he has not exhibited at all is thatbhe has the emotional shock absorbers to overcome the let down- the heart to dig even deeper and stay the course. Look at whonthe great champions have been over time. Who came from 50 something in the word after age 20 to develop into a champion? In this game, greatness is evident by now.
Again, even if he over this hump, that backhand will not allow him to go to the top 10. Liabilities aren't allowed. The best players will eventually break that side down.
Posted on 6/6/12 at 10:54 pm to dunkelman
Feds backhand is weaker than Ryan's. I don't see the unsound backhand. I agree it's not a weapon, but it's good enough for him to contend in majors. Tsongas backhand is terrible.
His serve is a weapon. It can become one of the best in the world. His forehand is excellent.
He doesn't know how to pick and choose his spots to come in right now, but he's solid at net the times I've seen him.
Will he get in the Wimbledon draw? I heard them discussing that during his Simon match. Said he was borderline.
His serve is a weapon. It can become one of the best in the world. His forehand is excellent.
He doesn't know how to pick and choose his spots to come in right now, but he's solid at net the times I've seen him.
Will he get in the Wimbledon draw? I heard them discussing that during his Simon match. Said he was borderline.
Posted on 6/6/12 at 11:17 pm to tuptiger
Don't agree on Fed's backhand. It is relative weakness, given how great everything else is. He can rip it down the line - the shot Ryan desperately needs. I agree he's solid at net and needs to get there a lot more. It is a shame to let someone just block your serve back or retrieve a killed forehand and get right back in the point because of positioning. That's were Fed is vastly superior- probably has the best all court/transition game of all time.
I'd like to see Ryan do what Sampras did (now there's a backhand not as good as Fed's). Instead, his model of late seems to be more Roddickesque but without the 135 mph serve. Their backhands are very similar mechanically. Ryan needs to utilize his net skills to make up for the fact that he won't get the free points on serve that Roddick did.
He's top 60 in the world and one of the top American's. Don't see how he doesn't get in.
I'd like to see Ryan do what Sampras did (now there's a backhand not as good as Fed's). Instead, his model of late seems to be more Roddickesque but without the 135 mph serve. Their backhands are very similar mechanically. Ryan needs to utilize his net skills to make up for the fact that he won't get the free points on serve that Roddick did.
He's top 60 in the world and one of the top American's. Don't see how he doesn't get in.
Posted on 6/6/12 at 11:24 pm to tuptiger
Kvitova/Stosur final.
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