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Message
re: Notre Dame's Kelly must go?
Posted on 10/29/10 at 6:54 pm to cyde
Posted on 10/29/10 at 6:54 pm to cyde
quote:
cyde
my post was more of a general response to the thread, not at yours personally, but i will respond to this...
quote:
This. The coach is being paid a lot of money to do exactly that -- coach. He isn't being paid to run the entire school. If they have an A/V department, that might be a good place to start looking.
The head coach IS being paid to determine whether to practice inside or outside. it's part of his day to day job. this decision is made usually based on the weather, with the safety of his staff and players in mind. don't believe me? read the tressel quote posted in this thread.
1
Posted on 10/29/10 at 7:08 pm to lob1284
quote:
The head coach IS being paid to determine whether to practice inside or outside. it's part of his day to day job. this decision is made usually based on the weather, with the safety of his staff and players in mind. don't believe me? read the tressel quote posted in this thread.
Yeah, I know that the coach determines where the practice is held and that inclement weather plays a part in this decision.
The question is whether the coach determines if the A/V crew films or not, and what methods they use to film and under what circumstances they use said methods. If this is part of the athletic department, it seems more like the AD would be where the buck stops in this case, unless the A/V crew only films for the football team...?
The problem with this thread speaks to the reason that none of us are in charge of anything on Saturdays other than sitting in a chair, watching the game with a top popped on a beer. Decisions are being suggested out of emotion. That's where this thread almost entirely fails.
This post was edited on 10/29/10 at 7:13 pm
Posted on 10/29/10 at 7:34 pm to cyde
There's plenty of blame to go around. To say this is an example of the pussification of American is pathetic.
The kid was told by his boss to go up and film practice. The kid being respectful and wanting his job did what he was told to do. Now the supervisor should have known that the lift was graded safe only up to 25 mph. Maybe the kid didn't know what the rating was and did his job like he was supposed to do.
The kid was following orders and had to assume since his boss told him to go up there it was okay and safe. Now you can be terrified and scared and still believe that it's safe for you to be up there because your boss told you to go up there because you trust your boss and the institution. You trust that the boss knows what's safe unless you've read the safety rules. Unless they can provide a document with the kid's signature stating that he read the safety rules of the lift they're nailed.
The kid was told by his boss to go up and film practice. The kid being respectful and wanting his job did what he was told to do. Now the supervisor should have known that the lift was graded safe only up to 25 mph. Maybe the kid didn't know what the rating was and did his job like he was supposed to do.
The kid was following orders and had to assume since his boss told him to go up there it was okay and safe. Now you can be terrified and scared and still believe that it's safe for you to be up there because your boss told you to go up there because you trust your boss and the institution. You trust that the boss knows what's safe unless you've read the safety rules. Unless they can provide a document with the kid's signature stating that he read the safety rules of the lift they're nailed.
Posted on 10/29/10 at 7:38 pm to Ralph_Wiggum
quote:
Ralph_Wiggum
Agreed. The question, at this point, is who the supervisor in this case is, exactly. Is it Kelly? Is it the AD? Is there a head to the A/V department? What's the story here?
We can't simply assume that since the guy was filming a football practice, then Brian Kelly must be the responsible party, and -- oh yeah -- since he makes a ton of dough, even if he isn't the responsible party, he fricking should be the responsible party. That's emotional reasoning and is dumb.
Now none of this is to say that Kelly is or isn't the responsible party, the simple fact of the matter is that, as it stands, I don't know who is. I'm more concerned with finding out who to blame than rushing out and blaming the first person I can think of (or the person who makes the highest salary.)
Posted on 10/29/10 at 7:50 pm to cyde
quote:
Agreed. The question, at this point, is who the supervisor in this case is, exactly. Is it Kelly? Is it the AD? Is there a head to the A/V department? What's the story here?
We can't simply assume that since the guy was filming a football practice, then Brian Kelly must be the responsible party, and -- oh yeah -- since he makes a ton of dough, even if he isn't the responsible party, he fricking should be the responsible party. That's emotional reasoning and is dumb.
Now none of this is to say that Kelly is or isn't the responsible party, the simple fact of the matter is that, as it stands, I don't know who is. I'm more concerned with finding out who to blame than rushing out and blaming the first person I can think of (or the person who makes the highest salary.)
You are right. Kelly may not be directly responsible for this. The kid had an immediate supervisor and I doubt it was Kelly. Now, if Kelly was told it was too windy and then told them to film or had Kelly said that under no circumstances are you to not film then he's responsible.
Posted on 10/29/10 at 7:55 pm to cyde
OK, just so we're clear, the decision to practice outside wasn't a bad one. It was perfectly OK to practice outside. It was not dangerous at all on the ground.
Now, as for the student. From what I've read, nobody told him to go up, because there's not instructions on a day-to-day basis. Everyone knows their job, and does it every day, like clockwork. Nobody is told to do it, they just do it. Therefore, nobody forced him to go up, or made him stay up. Now, should someone have told him to come down? Yes. But nobody told him to go up in the first place.
I'm not trying to place blame on the kid, because he was just doing his job, but I am trying to take blame off of Kelly. He's not an expert on the safety of those things, he probably had no idea the kid was in danger. Whoever's in charge of the video and/or lifts probably should have told him to come down. Kelly was focusing on practice (also, I've heard that the group that is responsible for filming the practice is a company not a part of ND, FWIW).
And needless to say, I'm being told Kelly is really distraught. Obviously, people would be upset, but he's basically unapproachable in his office right now, so I've heard. He's going to have to live with the fact that (even though it may not, and I don't think is, directly his fault, he did choose to practice outside) his decision on where to practice would have changed the outcome. I'm not saying this makes it his fault, or that he should be fired, because I completely disagree with that, but he will think about this every day for the rest of his life. IMO, that's enough "punishment", especially for something that probably wasn't directly his fault.
Now, as for the student. From what I've read, nobody told him to go up, because there's not instructions on a day-to-day basis. Everyone knows their job, and does it every day, like clockwork. Nobody is told to do it, they just do it. Therefore, nobody forced him to go up, or made him stay up. Now, should someone have told him to come down? Yes. But nobody told him to go up in the first place.
I'm not trying to place blame on the kid, because he was just doing his job, but I am trying to take blame off of Kelly. He's not an expert on the safety of those things, he probably had no idea the kid was in danger. Whoever's in charge of the video and/or lifts probably should have told him to come down. Kelly was focusing on practice (also, I've heard that the group that is responsible for filming the practice is a company not a part of ND, FWIW).
And needless to say, I'm being told Kelly is really distraught. Obviously, people would be upset, but he's basically unapproachable in his office right now, so I've heard. He's going to have to live with the fact that (even though it may not, and I don't think is, directly his fault, he did choose to practice outside) his decision on where to practice would have changed the outcome. I'm not saying this makes it his fault, or that he should be fired, because I completely disagree with that, but he will think about this every day for the rest of his life. IMO, that's enough "punishment", especially for something that probably wasn't directly his fault.
This post was edited on 10/29/10 at 7:56 pm
Posted on 10/29/10 at 7:57 pm to Ralph_Wiggum
quote:
You are right. Kelly may not be directly responsible for this. The kid had an immediate supervisor and I doubt it was Kelly. Now, if Kelly was told it was too windy and then told them to film or had Kelly said that under no circumstances are you to not film then he's responsible.
Actually, I'd be surprised if Kelly was even paying attention to the A/V crew, having seen what CFB practices are usually like in upper-echelon programs. It's a busy procedure and the coach is generally hyper-focused on what the team is doing, not on what the film crew is doing.
It's not unreasonable for Kelly to assume that the A/V department are professionals, have their own hierarchy and know what they're doing, know how their equipment is rated, and have their own set of procedures to follow while filming. "The A/V crew is doing their thing. They know what they're doing. It isn't my job to tell them how to do theirs.
Again, I'm not saying we need to absolve anyone of blame. We need to make sure we're blaming the right people and not making an example of someone. A witch hunt won't bring the kid back or even help anything at all other than assuage some anger on the part of some really misinformed assholes.
ETA:
quote:
And needless to say, I'm being told Kelly is really distraught. Obviously, people would be upset, but he's basically unapproachable in his office right now, so I've heard. He's going to have to live with the fact that (even though it may not, and I don't think is, directly his fault, he did choose to practice outside) his decision on where to practice would have changed the outcome. I'm not saying this makes it his fault, or that he should be fired, because I completely disagree with that, but he will think about this every day for the rest of his life. IMO, that's enough "punishment", especially for something that probably wasn't directly his fault.
This.
This post was edited on 10/29/10 at 8:01 pm
Posted on 10/29/10 at 8:00 pm to Buckeye Fan 19
quote:
I am trying to take blame off of Kelly. He's not an expert on the safety of those things
but jim tressel is?
it doesn't take an expert to realize the hazard involved.
and the kid wasn't directly forced to go up there, but it's his job, it's implied. that's his whole purpose for being at practice, to go up on the lift and shoot, i guarentee you it's what he does every day. the team practicing outside implies he has to go up on the lift.
Posted on 10/29/10 at 8:02 pm to lob1284
quote:
but jim tressel is?
No. He's not. He's another guy with another opinion just like all the other people in this forum. Hell, for all we know, Tressel may post on TD in his spare time.
Tressel knows dick and so does Kelly.
Hindsight is fricking 20/15.
ETA: We can't assume that Notre Dame uses the same hierarchy in their athletic A/V that Ohio State does, either. Come on, people. You're smarter than this. Drop the emotional aspect and look at this logically.
This post was edited on 10/29/10 at 8:05 pm
Posted on 10/29/10 at 8:04 pm to lob1284
quote:
but jim tressel is?
it doesn't take an expert to realize the hazard involved.
Well, Tress is the man like that.
However, do you really think Kelly (or anybody) anticipated that that would tip? I really don't think anyone even thought about it. You can say that's "negligence" (as in, they knew the kid was in a dangerous spot), I just honestly think they weren't aware of how serious the situation was. And given the fact Brian Kelly has many more things that are more pressing at practice to worry about than what the video guy's doing, I think someone in the video crew should have been the one to tell him to come down.
Posted on 10/29/10 at 8:08 pm to cyde
jim tressel consciously thought about the safety of his video guys on the lift when deciding where to practice on a windy day before the ND accident.
he didn't just do this because he's this great guy, he did because it's part of his job and his responsibility. kelly failed to do this, this is what i'm getting at. i'm not saying he did it on purpose. The video head has a say in this decision for the safety of his guys, but ultimately the head coach makes the call, not him. tressel understands that wherever they practice, someone has got to be up high to film it, and that it's his decision. if the weather is a hazard for those guys, but not his players, it's still something he's responsible for. in this instance, he's just as responsible for those video guys as he is for his own players, because it's ultimately his decision.
he didn't just do this because he's this great guy, he did because it's part of his job and his responsibility. kelly failed to do this, this is what i'm getting at. i'm not saying he did it on purpose. The video head has a say in this decision for the safety of his guys, but ultimately the head coach makes the call, not him. tressel understands that wherever they practice, someone has got to be up high to film it, and that it's his decision. if the weather is a hazard for those guys, but not his players, it's still something he's responsible for. in this instance, he's just as responsible for those video guys as he is for his own players, because it's ultimately his decision.
Posted on 10/29/10 at 8:16 pm to lob1284
quote:
his video guys
Again, we can't assume that the situation at Notre Dame is the same as the situation at Ohio State with regards to how the A/V department hierarchy works. Maybe Tressel is in charge of that over there. Maybe Kelly isn't at Notre Dame.
What we've seen so far indicates that they don't use the same system. Stop using Ohio State as a measuring stick by which to judge a different situation at a different school. We don't even know if all the pieces fit.
quote:
kelly failed to do this, this is what i'm getting at.
And you're operating under the same series of assumptions I've already pointed out. It doesn't work that way, brah. Just sit back and let the facts come out before you start pointing fingers. It's ok to be indignant. It's ok to be anguished. It's ok to be angry. Make sure you're directing those emotions intelligently instead of instinctually.
quote:
but ultimately the head coach makes the call, not him
Link? And don't give me what Ohio State does. Give me what Notre Dame does.
This post was edited on 10/29/10 at 8:19 pm
Posted on 10/29/10 at 8:22 pm to cyde
i can promise you it's the same at both schools. there is a head to a video department, this would be the kid's boss at either school.
then there is a head coach who decides whether to practice inside or outside.
my point is whoever decides where to practice is ultimately responsible. because someone will always be up shooting, every big college has guys shooting up high, it's just how it works.
maybe i'm not following you, explain what you are implying.
then there is a head coach who decides whether to practice inside or outside.
my point is whoever decides where to practice is ultimately responsible. because someone will always be up shooting, every big college has guys shooting up high, it's just how it works.
maybe i'm not following you, explain what you are implying.
Posted on 10/29/10 at 8:23 pm to Buckeye Fan 19
quote:
Now, as for the student. From what I've read, nobody told him to go up, because there's not instructions on a day-to-day basis. Everyone knows their job, and does it every day, like clockwork. Nobody is told to do it, they just do it. Therefore, nobody forced him to go up, or made him stay up. Now, should someone have told him to come down? Yes. But nobody told him to go up in the first place.
this made me LOL
seriously?
Posted on 10/29/10 at 8:24 pm to lob1284
quote:
The video head has a say in this decision for the safety of his guys, but ultimately the head coach makes the call, not him.
Oh really? Can you point me to ND's protocol and policies with regard to the lifts that were being used? I was curious to know who makes those decisions, since without knowing the facts (as you seem to), I figured it could be any number of people ranging from (1) the director of the A/V department, (2) the director of student football managers, (3) the head of risk management at Notre Dame, (4) the ND site manager for the athletic fields (5) or more specifically, the site manager for their football practice fields, (6) ND's director of football operations, (7) ND's quality control person, or (8) ND's head coach.
Clearly, as you imply, you have reviewed their policies and decision-making protocols, so could you please link those? Thanks in advance.
Posted on 10/29/10 at 8:28 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
this made me LOL
seriously?
Why? When you go to work everyday, do you go ask your boss if you're supposed to do your job that day? Or do you just show up and do it?
What that poster is saying may very well be true. The student may very well have just showed up to work, got his camera, when to his lift, and began filming. Just as he did at every practice. It is possible that he asked someone whether he was supposed to film that day, but does anyone know whether he did? Nope.
Posted on 10/29/10 at 8:29 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
this made me LOL
seriously?
Um... yes?
People obviously tell them at the start of the year, of course. They have to train for the job, and at the beginning get help. But once it gets into the swing of things, yes, nobody goes up to them and says:
"Hey, you know you're filming today, right?"
"Yes, I know... just like every day."
Posted on 10/29/10 at 8:29 pm to lob1284
quote:
i can promise you it's the same at both schools. there is a head to a video department, this would be the kid's boss at either school.
This is getting boring. Link?
quote:
then there is a head coach who decides whether to practice inside or outside.
We've already established this.
quote:
my point is whoever decides where to practice is ultimately responsible.
quote:
maybe i'm not following you, explain what you are implying.
What part do you not understand?
Let me reiterate this from a prior post:
quote:
Oh really? Can you point me to ND's protocol and policies with regard to the lifts that were being used? I was curious to know who makes those decisions, since without knowing the facts (as you seem to), I figured it could be any number of people ranging from (1) the director of the A/V department, (2) the director of student football managers, (3) the head of risk management at Notre Dame, (4) the ND site manager for the athletic fields (5) or more specifically, the site manager for their football practice fields, (6) ND's director of football operations, (7) ND's quality control person, or (8) ND's head coach.
Clearly, as you imply, you have reviewed their policies and decision-making protocols, so could you please link those? Thanks in advance.
This post was edited on 10/29/10 at 8:31 pm
Posted on 10/29/10 at 8:30 pm to lob1284
quote:
my point is whoever decides where to practice is ultimately responsible.
I completely disagree with that opinion.
Posted on 10/29/10 at 8:32 pm to cyde
I also saw on another board someone make a good point. Yes, Tressel said that they were concerned for the cameramen. But maybe it was after someone in the A/V department told him that it was dangerous. I doubt Tress is an expert on what conditions are safe or not. It's entirely possible the expert told him what was. If Kelly's "expert" never told him, how can he be at fault?
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