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re: Mine that Bird -VS- Secretariat
Posted on 10/21/09 at 5:56 am to BayouKat
Posted on 10/21/09 at 5:56 am to BayouKat
Secretariat. His mile and a quarter time at the Belmont (1:59 flat) was faster than his Derby winning time that still stands as a record. His Belmont time for the mile and a half was 2:24 which is also a record that still stands and is the still the fastest mile and a half ever run.
Secretariat at the Belmont
Secretariat at the Belmont
2
Posted on 10/21/09 at 6:41 am to VABuckeye
damn...there were only 4 other horses in that race.
what's up with that?
what's up with that?
Posted on 10/21/09 at 7:01 am to VABuckeye
quote:
Secretariat. His mile and a quarter time at the Belmont (1:59 flat) was faster than his Derby winning time that still stands as a record. His Belmont time for the mile and a half was 2:24 which is also a record that still stands and is the still the fastest mile and a half ever run.
Posted on 10/21/09 at 7:43 am to LSUTANGERINE
Secretariat was the greatest horse ever
Posted on 10/21/09 at 7:58 am to Lithium
quote:
Secretariat was the greatest horse ever
I disagree
Posted on 10/21/09 at 9:02 am to Lithium
quote:
Secretariat was the greatest horse ever
Correct, no horse could ever match Big Red. When he won the triple crown by 30 lengths men and women alike sobbed. He had an extra gear and endurance. This horse also loved to win, he loved the cameras. Jockeys never whipped this horse, he just ran to win.
I remember his last race up in Canada. It was cold and wet and he broke from the pack and the steam coming out of his nostrils looked like a freigt train and won by 14 lengths.
Posted on 10/21/09 at 9:15 am to bomber77
I could think of 10 horses just from the 2000's I'd take over Mine That Bird....terrible question
Posted on 10/21/09 at 9:40 am to Herbstreit
Every year I pray for a Triple Crown winner, and almost every year I'm let down at Belmont. I really think Barbaro could have been the horse. His size was built for the Belmont.
Posted on 10/21/09 at 12:50 pm to genuineLSUtiger
i think you lost your mind 5 furlongs ago 
Posted on 10/21/09 at 3:14 pm to bomber77
Hell, Rachel Alexander is better than Mine That Bird. Mine That Bird isn't even the best horse right now.
And Secretariat isn't even the best horse named Big Red.
And Secretariat isn't even the best horse named Big Red.
Posted on 10/21/09 at 6:48 pm to TxTiger25
quote:
I mean if you look at track and field athletes now and then there's no comparison, so it would stand to reason horses are faster now too.
I saw some information about that a couple years back in the pre Derby buildup. The track experts pointed out that the speed of horses has not improved at the pace of humans. Their reasoning was that horses don't train and run to break records. Humans study techniques and train with an intense desire to improve their performance. Horses just run with the urging of their jockey.
Secretariat and it's not close. He broke records in all three Triple Crown races. Unfortunately, I think it was the Preakeness, the clock malfunctioned and he didn't get credit he deserved. When the video of the race was played back it proved it was a record but race officials would not recognize the tape as proof.
Posted on 10/21/09 at 6:54 pm to roygu
quote:
Secretariat and it's not close
Correct. When he died didn't the autopsy reveal that he had some kind of "super heart." That enabled him to pump more oxeganted blood than any other horse? Like Miguel Indurain for a human.
Posted on 10/21/09 at 9:43 pm to Lithium
quote:
Secretariat was the greatest horse ever
Obviously.
ETA: Some say Man O'War, but track records don't lie. And Secretariat's most amazing race, the Preakness, in which on the back stretch he moves from dead last into the lead like a jet doesn't lie. Man O War couldn't do that.
This post was edited on 10/21/09 at 9:46 pm
Posted on 10/22/09 at 12:41 am to SPEEDY
quote:
damn...there were only 4 other horses in that race.
what's up with that?
The owners of the other horses did not want to get their asses kick, so they did not join the race.
Posted on 10/22/09 at 7:32 am to Willem Dafoe
If it weren't for a clock malfunction at one of the Triple Crown races, Secretariat would own the record for all three races. And, for the one race he doesn't own the record, timers have attempted to figure out his time on tape and have concluded that he would clearly own that record as well. However, because they can only confirm it on tape, it doesn't "officially" count.
No horse has ever compared to Secretariat.
Perhaps one of the greatest sports stories ever written (long but worth the read) --
Pure Heart
No horse has ever compared to Secretariat.
Perhaps one of the greatest sports stories ever written (long but worth the read) --
Pure Heart
Posted on 10/22/09 at 8:08 am to Newbomb Turk
OK, we need some Man O War defenders, seeing as he’s considered by just about all horse racing fans as the greatest horse of all time.
He didn’t run the Derby because there was no “Triple Crown” at the time, but he did run Preakness and Belmont, winning both. In the Preakness, he ran 1:38.6 mile before pulling up to cruise to the finish. He won the Belmont Stakes (then a different length 1 3/8) by 20 lengths at a time of 2:14.2. Both were records. He ran 1 5/8 miles in 2:40.8, winning by nearly 100 lengths. That’s right. One hundred.
He ran short races, he ran long races. He ran in crowded fields and in match races. He won them all. Except one. He lost to a horse named Upset, from which we derive the term. And the only reason he lost is because due to a starting error, Upset started with a huge advantage because Man O War’s back was to the starting line and he wasn’t even at the line. He still almost won.
He also was a pretty successful stud, among his progeny are War Admiral, Crusader, and Seabiscuit.
Secretariat was great. Man O War was better.
He didn’t run the Derby because there was no “Triple Crown” at the time, but he did run Preakness and Belmont, winning both. In the Preakness, he ran 1:38.6 mile before pulling up to cruise to the finish. He won the Belmont Stakes (then a different length 1 3/8) by 20 lengths at a time of 2:14.2. Both were records. He ran 1 5/8 miles in 2:40.8, winning by nearly 100 lengths. That’s right. One hundred.
He ran short races, he ran long races. He ran in crowded fields and in match races. He won them all. Except one. He lost to a horse named Upset, from which we derive the term. And the only reason he lost is because due to a starting error, Upset started with a huge advantage because Man O War’s back was to the starting line and he wasn’t even at the line. He still almost won.
He also was a pretty successful stud, among his progeny are War Admiral, Crusader, and Seabiscuit.
Secretariat was great. Man O War was better.
Posted on 10/22/09 at 8:31 am to Baloo
I've read a lot of books about Man o War, and I think he's the best horse that ever lived, including Secretariat. He was so good, that when he lost the race to Upset, his jockey couldn't get his license renewed the next year. LINK
You have to click "get whole story" to see the rest of it, but it says:
"Loftus has never been charged with any deliberate wrongdoing in his defeat with Man o'War at Saratoga in the Sanford Memorial, although he did ride atrociously and was solely responsibly for the defeat of that great colt. Loftus got left at the post and then when finally ran away ran Man o' War into two or three pockets before he finally went to the outside to finish second to Upset. It was clearly a badly bungled ride."
Man o' War also had to run with ridiculously high weights of 138 pounds, and not only won with that, but set track records. He raced with over 130 pounds at least four times. Secretariat never carried over 126. (Andrew Beyer says that every pound carried over 117 slows the horse by 0.08 seconds...or 12.5 pounds for one second. So that's almost a full second in Secretariat's favor if he carried 126 and Man o War carried 138)
It has been written a lot that he was never fully extended, except for maybe one race with John P. Grier, and that trainers tried to double team him with two good horses instead of one because they "could not beat Man o' War single handed" LINK
This isn't a knock to Secretariat at all. He was an amazing horse. I just think Man o' War was better.
You have to click "get whole story" to see the rest of it, but it says:
"Loftus has never been charged with any deliberate wrongdoing in his defeat with Man o'War at Saratoga in the Sanford Memorial, although he did ride atrociously and was solely responsibly for the defeat of that great colt. Loftus got left at the post and then when finally ran away ran Man o' War into two or three pockets before he finally went to the outside to finish second to Upset. It was clearly a badly bungled ride."
Man o' War also had to run with ridiculously high weights of 138 pounds, and not only won with that, but set track records. He raced with over 130 pounds at least four times. Secretariat never carried over 126. (Andrew Beyer says that every pound carried over 117 slows the horse by 0.08 seconds...or 12.5 pounds for one second. So that's almost a full second in Secretariat's favor if he carried 126 and Man o War carried 138)
It has been written a lot that he was never fully extended, except for maybe one race with John P. Grier, and that trainers tried to double team him with two good horses instead of one because they "could not beat Man o' War single handed" LINK
This isn't a knock to Secretariat at all. He was an amazing horse. I just think Man o' War was better.
This post was edited on 10/22/09 at 9:01 am
Posted on 10/22/09 at 9:49 am to Baloo
quote:
OK, we need some Man O War defenders, seeing as he’s considered by just about all horse racing fans as the greatest horse of all time.
That's not so. Link? The producers of Sports Century, certainly racing fans, ranked Secretariat the 35th greatest athlete of the century (he should be first) and Man O War 86th.
Man O War dominated horse racing in its infancy, when the competition was not as strong as in Secretariat's time. Even accounting for inflation, Secretariat's prize winnings were greater. And by the only objective measures, track times, Secretariat was clearly better.
quote:
Secretariat was great. Man O War was better.
I can see how you'd think so, but it's simply not true. Even in terms of charisma it's not true.
You're probably not even old enough to have seen Secretariat. People in living rooms across America CRIED at what they witnessed in 1973.
We all pretty much knew Secretariat was going to win... other good horses didn't enter the Belmont because they were afraid Secretariat would burn them out. Our only real question was whether the very good Sham could upset the apple cart.
So, the country tuned in, ready to see a Triple Crown winner for the first time in 25 years... it was going to be anticlimactic, right? The hell it was. What we saw was BEYOND breathtaking. NOBODY who witnessed that race (or the 1973 Preakness, for that matter) could rationally say that Man O War could have done better.
Posted on 10/22/09 at 9:52 am to Rex
I can't link to gambling sites at work. Go to Blood Horse, they ranked all of the horses of all time. Man O War was #1. I'm pretty sure the Daily Racing Form did the same.
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