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Started By
Message
re: Stock markets vulnerable to hack - flash crash, about $100 billion disappears
Posted on 4/25/13 at 1:17 pm to Broke
Posted on 4/25/13 at 1:17 pm to Broke
quote:
The proverbial line in the sand. There it is.
Not really, because it'll all boil down to political beliefs. I'll post things from the Austrian school that disprove his assertion. He'll post things from the authoritarian schools that disprove me. We'll argue about definitions of what a boom and bust cycle is, whether or not they were in fact caused by the government and/or banks, etc. etc.
And at the end, the proponents of free markets will still believe what they believe, and the proponents of authoritarianism will still believe what they believe.
1
Posted on 4/25/13 at 1:22 pm to BennyAndTheInkJets
quote:
I'm not saying Rothbard doesn't have some legitimate points, I even stated that earlier. But to assume that his book is some oasis of enlightenment that has been lost in the ides of time is just not correct.
Considering these books are less than 50 years old and Rothbard is (by FAR) more popular than ever, it would be ridiculous to say that this is "lost knowledge."
No, I'm simply stating that central bankers (and their contemporary economists) do not read or know who Rothbard was.
Have you read Krugman's critique of the Austrian school? It was incredibly lazy and filled with strawman's that looked like they came from a quick glance at the AS' wikipedia page.
quote:
If a private electronic currency takes off to the point you imply, then neither Rothbard nor any other current schools of economics will be applicable to the current state of global economics.
This is incorrect, and clearly you haven't read Rothbard. Things like the Rothbardian concept of the optimal quantity of money are put in practice by Bitcoin.
Posted on 4/25/13 at 1:23 pm to WikiTiger
quote:
I'll post things from the Austrian school that disprove his assertion. He'll post things from the authoritarian schools that disprove me. We'll argue about definitions of what a boom and bust cycle is, whether or not they were in fact caused by the government and/or banks, etc. etc.
And at the end, the proponents of free markets will still believe what they believe, and the proponents of authoritarianism will still believe what they believe.
It's like we've had this debate 100 times before.
Posted on 4/25/13 at 1:24 pm to BennyAndTheInkJets
quote:
If you look at data
You do realize you're arguing with an Austrian, right?
The praxeology is what matters utmost, the data is secondary and can't be understood properly without the understanding of the praxeology.
Posted on 4/25/13 at 1:30 pm to joshnorris14
You would argue that a dollar isn't really a dollar.
Posted on 4/25/13 at 1:35 pm to Broke
You would create as many straw men as possible.
Posted on 4/25/13 at 1:41 pm to joshnorris14
quote:
You would create as many straw men as possible.
What we preach is fact. Data. If you call that straw men then so be it. I have you pegged for a 20 year old who is learning his ways in school. I have one little shite like you in every class I teach.
Posted on 4/25/13 at 1:44 pm to Broke
quote:
I have you pegged for a 20 year old who is learning his ways in school. I have one little shite like you in every class I teach.
Makes you want to donate to abortion clinics I'm sure
Posted on 4/25/13 at 1:48 pm to Vols&Shaft83
Believe it or not, I actually let them have their way. As long as they form a belief and can back it up with either a solid theory or data, I let them go.
Often knowing full well that they are wrong.
Often knowing full well that they are wrong.
Posted on 4/25/13 at 1:50 pm to joshnorris14
quote:
No, I'm simply stating that central bankers (and their contemporary economists) do not read or know who Rothbard was.
And you're wrong.
quote:
Have you read Krugman's critique of the Austrian school? It was incredibly lazy and filled with strawman's that looked like they came from a quick glance at the AS' wikipedia page.
Anything Krugman has done since has pieces on international trade are either lazy or trolling.
quote:
This is incorrect, and clearly you haven't read Rothbard. Things like the Rothbardian concept of the optimal quantity of money are put in practice by Bitcoin.
I have absolutely read Rothbard, several times. Are you trying to equate the backing of physical gold and silver as the optimal supply of money to bitcoin? Bitcoin isn't backed by anything, and yes, you can extrapolate Rothbard to say gold and silver isn't backed by anything either. You know the difference? I can hold gold in my hand, I can count it, I can weigh it, there is no threat of hacking a gold exchange, and it will be there regardless of what the rest of society is doing. That's why it has been the only form of currency that has existed over so many millenia. Is that the case with a crypto currency? No. The connection between bitcoin and the Austrian school is strong in theory, but weak in practice.
Posted on 4/25/13 at 1:54 pm to Broke
quote:
What we preach is fact.
Saying I would say a dollar isn't a dollar is a straw man. That is a fact.
quote:
I have you pegged for a 20 year old who is learning his ways in school.
Can you show me where I can take courses on Austrian Economics?
The only place in Florida that I know that has courses is Rollins College, and I'm far too poor to afford the tuition.
This is what I act like in Econ classes:
*rolls eyes*
*Asks sarcastic questions about exploiting the broken window fallacy through a state of ignorance*
*Asks why the principles of micro don't translate to macro*
*rolls eyes*
This post was edited on 4/25/13 at 2:00 pm
Posted on 4/25/13 at 1:58 pm to BennyAndTheInkJets
quote:
Are you trying to equate the backing of physical gold and silver as the optimal supply of money to bitcoin?
No.
LINK
quote:
Does that mean that, once gold became money, all mining and production of gold was a waste? No, because a greater supply of gold allowed an increase in gold's non-monetary use: more abundant and lower-priced jewelry, ornaments, fillings for teeth, etc. But more gold as money was not needed in the economy. Money, then, is unique among goods and services since increases in its supply are neither beneficial nor needed; indeed, such increases only dilute money's unique value: to be a worthy object of exchange.
quote:
Bitcoin isn't backed by anything, and yes, you can extrapolate Rothbard to say gold and silver isn't backed by anything either.
Irrelevant. Rothbard wasn't for a gold standard necessarily. He was outspokenly for a free market in money.
quote:
I can hold gold in my hand, I can count it, I can weigh it, there is no threat of hacking a gold exchange, and it will be there regardless of what the rest of society is doing. That's why it has been the only form of currency that has existed over so many millenia. Is that the case with a crypto currency?
So Rothbard's limitation of predicting future techonology counts against his theory? How could he have possibly predicted the arise of crypto-currency unless he miraculously read the Crypto-Anarchists Manifesto?
Before his death in 1995 we're talking about literally a handful of people who even knew about the theory of crypto-currencies.
quote:
The connection between bitcoin and the Austrian school is strong in theory, but weak in practice.
The connection is perfect and it is being explained by Austrian's now. Mainly through Jeffrey Tucker (Who was Rothbard's best friend).
This post was edited on 4/25/13 at 2:02 pm
Posted on 4/25/13 at 2:01 pm to joshnorris14
CBOE restores trading after tech problems
you think the bitcoin hates are going to acknowledge the tech problems the world's largest options exchange had today?
According to the bitcoin haters on this site, no one should ever trust a system that has problems like that.
you think the bitcoin hates are going to acknowledge the tech problems the world's largest options exchange had today?
quote:
The Chicago Board Options Exchange said that most functions have been restored after an apparent system malfunction delayed opening by hours.
The exchange's status page said most functions had been restored by 11:55 central time and floor trading resumed around noon.
A CBOE top executive said its delayed opening was due to software problems and not a computer hacking incident.
“We had some technology problem this morning,” Edward Provost, executive vice president & chief business development officer at CBOE, said at an options industry event in Las Vegas.
According to the bitcoin haters on this site, no one should ever trust a system that has problems like that.
Posted on 4/25/13 at 2:01 pm to joshnorris14
quote:
You do realize you're arguing with an Austrian, right?
The praxeology is what matters utmost, the data is secondary and can't be understood properly without the understanding of the praxeology.
So I was right in assuming everything you've read has been one-sided? I can agree with a lot of points from the school, but praxeology still has never given enough to disprove my points related to the the basic graph I mentioned. Normalize GDP into percentages, and look at the recessions pre-1913 versus post 1913. Neither Mises, Rothbard, Long, Callahan, etc. have ever given enough to sway the conclusion the opposite way.
ETA: And yes I know Long is more on the ethics side but I'm focusing on praxeology itself.
This post was edited on 4/25/13 at 2:07 pm
Posted on 4/25/13 at 2:06 pm to BennyAndTheInkJets
quote:
Neither Mises, Rothbard, Long, Callahan, etc. have ever given enough to sway the conclusion the opposite way.
Actually Rothbard has.
LINK
And why would they use GDP when they don't recognize it as anything useful?
Posted on 4/25/13 at 2:11 pm to WikiTiger
quote:Tell us how much value the dollar lost because of it, dumbass.
you think the bitcoin hates are going to acknowledge the tech problems the world's largest options exchange had today?
Posted on 4/25/13 at 2:18 pm to joshnorris14
So the 1819 crisis is what you say to disprove my point? It doesn't do that in the least bit, my point is that since there was no central bank to control inflation/deflation, which was definitely needed post War of 1812, that recessions became much deeper.
You also know there were 33 other recessions as well pre-1933?
This is what I mean by saying no form of praxeology or arguments from the Austrian school has every come close to countering the argument that recessions are less frequent and less violent since the creation of the Fed.
We can use trade activity, industrial activity, whatever you want. The data still supports my claim.
You also know there were 33 other recessions as well pre-1933?
This is what I mean by saying no form of praxeology or arguments from the Austrian school has every come close to countering the argument that recessions are less frequent and less violent since the creation of the Fed.
quote:
And why would they use GDP when they don't recognize it as anything useful?
We can use trade activity, industrial activity, whatever you want. The data still supports my claim.
Posted on 4/25/13 at 2:27 pm to BennyAndTheInkJets
quote:
BennyAndTheInkJets
I
to your superior knowledge of banking and economics. Posted on 4/25/13 at 2:30 pm to BennyAndTheInkJets
quote:
So the 1819 crisis is what you say to disprove my point
There have been other books (And one economist in particular that wrote them) that have accounted for all of the recessions pre-1913, but the name of them and the economist slips me right now. If I remember it I'll post them.
That's just the one book I've known that I could recall off the top of my head.
quote:
You also know there were 33 other recessions as well pre-1933?
Were the recessions or panics? Either way, yes.
quote:
This is what I mean by saying no form of praxeology or arguments from the Austrian school has every come close to countering the argument that recessions
Praxeology doesn't argue anything. It discovers necessary facts. Without understanding praxeology you can't properly evaluate the empirical data.
The Austrian school does a wonderful job of taking on the post-Central Banking recession (starting out with ABCT under Mises and Hayek) as that's what mattered at the time. Their prescriptions hold when there is no central bank.
Posted on 4/25/13 at 2:31 pm to joshnorris14
You're losing.
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