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re: Anyone mostly crypto and dropping banks?
Posted on 2/20/22 at 6:13 pm to thelawnwranglers
Posted on 2/20/22 at 6:13 pm to thelawnwranglers
you’re good I’ll add SFP isn’t wrong at all to say if a government wanted to make significantly harder than it currently is to exchange crypto for fiat they could theoretically shut down all exchanges and force the whole works into a black market, sure this is technically a possibility
But let’s be real, Coinbase for example is a publicly traded company offering services internationally whose market cap is on par with big banks. There are plenty of crypto friendly people in Congress and the youth in this nation are adopting crypto pretty rapidly. I honestly just think this scenario is profoundly unrealistic in a western nation and that there there will always be centralized exchanges which act as on/off ramps for fiat. Now those ramps will absolutely blacklist crypto wallet addresses if a government tells them too which is why tumblers and non-KYC exchanges get brought up.
But let’s be real, Coinbase for example is a publicly traded company offering services internationally whose market cap is on par with big banks. There are plenty of crypto friendly people in Congress and the youth in this nation are adopting crypto pretty rapidly. I honestly just think this scenario is profoundly unrealistic in a western nation and that there there will always be centralized exchanges which act as on/off ramps for fiat. Now those ramps will absolutely blacklist crypto wallet addresses if a government tells them too which is why tumblers and non-KYC exchanges get brought up.
2
Posted on 2/20/22 at 6:17 pm to Ross
quote:
you’re good I’ll add SFP isn’t wrong at all to say if a government wanted to make significantly harder than it currently is to exchange crypto for fiat they could theoretically shut down all exchanges and force the whole works into a black market, sure this is technically a possibility
Fear porn - that's why Biden wants all transactions $600 more.
No expert curious what china will do when they have digital currency. Think they stopped mining bc power issues ahead of Olympics.
Seems governments scared to be crypto unfriendly but will start addressing
Posted on 2/20/22 at 6:19 pm to Ross
quote:
There are plenty of crypto friendly people in Congress and the youth in this nation are adopting crypto pretty rapidly. I honestly just think this scenario is profoundly unrealistic in a western nation and that there there will always be centralized exchanges which act as on/off ramps for fiat. Now those ramps will absolutely blacklist crypto wallet addresses if a government tells them too which is why tumblers and non-KYC exchanges get brought up.
Makes sense to me- think gov will be curious about taxing. But you still probably want to be the off ramp currency
Buying physical silver even though I know it doesn't make sense
This post was edited on 2/20/22 at 6:21 pm
Posted on 2/21/22 at 8:13 am to rocket31
quote:
he was on here comparing bitcoin to tulips about 1 year ago,
You're going to have to link me to that. I don't remember making that comparison and, if I did, there is a lot of context missing.
quote:
just because were brainwashed into using dollars as the unit of account, it doesnt mean its a "stable currency"
Historically, it's pretty stable, but it's not perfect. I'm not defending the inflationary policies of fedgov the past 100 years.
Within the context of government-backed/fiat currencies, it's still the most stable/best option. You can pay for things almost anywhere on earth with USD. In many countries, it's preferred to their national currency.
quote:
in fact, every fiat in existence has devalued to zero over time.
And most cryptos used as currency will meet the same fate, especially in today's overcrowded market. That's the nature of human progress and the USD isn't special where these rules don't apply to it.
Posted on 2/21/22 at 8:15 am to rocket31
quote:
if your denominator is Bitcoin houses have gotten much cheaper
if someone is incapable of wrapping their mind around this simple concept than there is no point taking anything they say seriously
There are multiple points being discussed.
Yes, over your pre-selected period, BTC has been a better investment than USD. But the investment angle is only one part of this discussion.
Within that same timeframe, BTC has become severely limited as a means of payment/currency, for the very reasons you celebrate.
Posted on 2/21/22 at 8:19 am to Ross
quote:
from a hardware wallet to another hardware wallet? They can’t
I'm not arguing this.
But in rocket's proposed system (saving BTC and spending USD), the wallet-USD transfer is the issue. It doesn't matter how many times you translate the crypto, the end conversion is the (potential) bottleneck (IF governments decide to attack cryptos).
Then, your crypto of choice would be needed to be used as a currency, and that's where the currency-investment paradox comes into play. Also, you would need widespread use and acceptance, which, again, hasn't been seen as a reality since the explosion in 17/18.
Posted on 2/21/22 at 8:21 am to JayDeerTay84
quote:
I dollar buys less today than it did 10 years ago and 1 BTC today buys a frickload more than it did 10 years ago.
Its like the complete opposite and they absolutely just want to hate it.
What? Where am I disagreeing about the value of BTC compared to USD in your pre-selected timeframe shows?
Posted on 2/21/22 at 8:27 am to JayDeerTay84
quote:
You still have a singular description of crypto.
You still are thinking in terms of fiat and it’s limited capabilities. Crypto can occupy many spaces at once.
It can literally be an asset (BTC), payment (lightning), technology (blockchain), auditing (ledger), security (sha256), power conversion (hashrate) and the worlds largest decentralized network all at once.
This thread is about crypto instead of banks, so crypto is a currency equivalent for this discussion.
I have been all about the technology for over 10 years. I was a full supporter of its use as a currency since I heard about it.
When crypto became popular, it became an asset. That changed everything about its nature, especially as a currency. It became primarily an asset and the mass adoption and proliferation is based around that specific role.
quote:
Fiat is on an exchange of value. It only does one thing.
Technically, within your crypto labels, it can be 2 (asset and payment).
Posted on 2/21/22 at 8:28 am to jimbeam
quote:
if we’re actually being honest, this past year.
Probably not that much but close, but 15% is around half of what BTC lost in the timeframe. So the possible worst year of USD is still what? 1/3 of the loss BTC suffered in the same timeframe? In terms of stability that is a big difference.
Posted on 2/21/22 at 8:55 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
I'm not arguing this.
But in rocket's proposed system (saving BTC and spending USD), the wallet-USD transfer is the issue. It doesn't matter how many times you translate the crypto, the end conversion is the (potential) bottleneck (IF governments decide to attack cryptos).
I understand this perfectly well, I just think your “government getting serious” approach of banning all conversions of crypto to USD through exchanges is unrealistic in this landscape and only becomes more unrealistic by the day as more and more people use crypto as an investment vehicle. Again, Coinbase has the market cap on par with some of our biggest banks and is a publicly traded company. The toothpaste is out of the tube on that.
And yeah, they will and are getting the CEXs to act as gatekeepers, but as long as there is a way to wash the coins like with coinjoin protocols through something like the Wasabi wallet there is a way to safely off ramp even if you’re in possession of a blacklisted address.
quote:
Then, your crypto of choice would be needed to be used as a currency, and that's where the currency-investment paradox comes into play. Also, you would need widespread use and acceptance, which, again, hasn't been seen as a reality since the explosion in 17/18.
Bit of a pivot, I could see a reality where there is a real demand for stablecoins to be accepted as a currency on online transactions over crypto rails. You could market this as helping bank the unbanked and get some popular support I’d imagine
Of course regulators would hate this reality with all of their hearts and souls for obvious reasons but it solves the dilemma of having to spend an inherently deflationary unit of account.
This post was edited on 2/22/22 at 7:28 am
Posted on 2/21/22 at 8:59 am to Ross
quote:
Bit of a pivot, I could see a reality where there is a real demand for stablecoins to be accepted as a currency on online transactions over crypto rails
If the big boys like BTC stay unstable, this will need to be a reality. But stablecoins, as you said, will fall under all sorts of regulations. They'll basically be exchange houses regulated like banks, in the most simple of terms.
If your name, SSN, and DOB have to be attached to the stablecoin, then the allure is tarnished a great deal.
*ETA: imagine if they taxed all conversions to stablecoins (or USD) at STCG rates. The technology can work both ways and create an incredibly efficient regulatory frame as well
This post was edited on 2/21/22 at 9:01 am
Posted on 2/21/22 at 10:21 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
BTC has become severely limited as a means of payment/currency, for the very reasons you celebrate.
it's main appeal is because oligarchs do not control it's issuance. a decentralized money is arguably more important than anything imo
to your point, using Bitcoin to buy things seems absolutely insane.. finite resources should be hodl'd but if you have no other choice then it's nice to have the option
I personally hold Bitcoin as hard asset collateral and take out fiat loans against it. you also avoid the tax man this way.
This post was edited on 2/21/22 at 10:23 am
Posted on 2/21/22 at 10:26 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
In terms of stability that is a big difference.
you still do not get it
it's stable because you know how many Bitcoin exists.. it's stable because I know how many will be mined every day.. its stable because I know the total circulating supply
there's absolutely nothing stable about "fiat" .... theyve printed 40% of the entire USD supply in just a couple years and you have zero control of fed policy to predict it moving forward
This post was edited on 2/21/22 at 10:28 am
Posted on 2/21/22 at 10:52 am to rocket31
For the crypto holders do you buy directly from exchange or use wallet?
PayPal makes it easy but seems like it defeats the point.
Almost seems like you need crypto savings account and one you use to find usage
PayPal makes it easy but seems like it defeats the point.
Almost seems like you need crypto savings account and one you use to find usage
Posted on 2/21/22 at 11:22 am to rocket31
quote:
to your point, using Bitcoin to buy things seems absolutely insane.
Then you agree with me, as long as you see it as an asset.
quote:
I personally hold Bitcoin as hard asset collateral
Which you do.
quote:
and take out fiat loans against it. you also avoid the tax man this way.
Again, treating it as an asset is fine. My point is that it can't be both an asset and currency. Also, I imagine you are using BTC different than 90%+ of BTC owners (even though most are now treating it as an asset).
Posted on 2/21/22 at 11:28 am to rocket31
quote:
it's stable because you know how many Bitcoin exists.. it's stable because I know how many will be mined every day.. its stable because I know the total circulating supply
there's absolutely nothing stable about "fiat" .... theyve printed 40% of the entire USD supply in just a couple years and you have zero control of fed policy to predict it moving forward
But the relative change still matters. At some point there will be a method of exchange to compare value.
At some point, this will no longer be the USD, sure, and since we're comparing BTC and USD we probably need another one. So let's use your example from earlier: houses.
Over the past year, the delta of BTC/house is larger than that of USD/house, because BTC has lost a lot more relative value over that time. Over 3 years, BTC has a minor lead.
However, you're changing the discussion from stability to asset value. This portion of the discussion is about the stability of USD v. BTC. Historically, the USD is a lot more stable year to year, and that was my point. An appreciating asset should be more unstable than a currency.
Posted on 2/21/22 at 1:03 pm to SlowFlowPro
The centralized issuers of stablecoins, like Tether and Circle, will no doubt have regulations imposed on them akin to FDIC insurance and they will likely also be forced to employ gatekeeper measures at the government's whim.
However, there are decentralized stablecoins though like Dai, issued by MakerDAO (which as a DAO, is likely a good bit harder to regulate or force coercion upon). I could see seeking to eliminate the use of these stables but if they pass on crypto rails again just gonna say there is going to be a way to exchange them for Tether/USDC in such a way that you'll be able to find an off-ramp.
just food for thought
However, there are decentralized stablecoins though like Dai, issued by MakerDAO (which as a DAO, is likely a good bit harder to regulate or force coercion upon). I could see seeking to eliminate the use of these stables but if they pass on crypto rails again just gonna say there is going to be a way to exchange them for Tether/USDC in such a way that you'll be able to find an off-ramp.
just food for thought
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