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Started By
Message
re: Question about the bias of SEC refs
Posted on 10/21/10 at 2:45 pm to PJinAtl
Posted on 10/21/10 at 2:45 pm to PJinAtl
quote:
Yes they may have some inner bias but much like those people who sit on juries across America each and every day deciding on things much much much more important than a fumble or a pass interference they have been judged by those in power to be able to put aside those biases and make fair decisions.
PJ
1) Do you think that an official living in Alabama with a child attending Auburn/Bama would pass the vetting process as long as
a)he didn't attend one of those schools
b)claimed that he was not a fan of that school !
2) Do you think an official is just going to fess up his bias to a school (like living in a neighborhood where all of his friends are fans of that schools) :
a)if there is no concrete evidence he has ties w/that school. ie like a diploma from that school
b)if he is getting a nice supplement to his income even if he can't make a living from it.
3) Based on the history of these 2 schools and their fan bases w/ the NCAA , do you think it's beyond these populaces to try and influence the outcome of a game by breaking rules?
4)LSU is one of 12 SEC schools . Do you think that 1/12 of the SEC officials are from La? If not , should there be ? That is, if these officials had no relationship w/LSU other than a child attending there and having all of your friends being fans of that school.
Honestly, please just answer these questions ? I admit LSU gets some calls against these 2 schools . I just think it's skewed for the big calls in the big games in the big seasons over a period of time.
These are the only schools that almost all the other schools feel they are at a disadvantage in the above mentioned situations.
thanks
In general I like Auburn fans . They don't seem to have that sense of entitlement like they have @ UAT.
2
Posted on 10/21/10 at 2:56 pm to WikiTiger
But do they know the names of the crews before the game and can they choose to say we want a different set of ref's to work a given game? I just think that it is an unfair advantage for the Bama teams as seen in the stats over the length of the entire season. I do not think that a ref from a given arear should be allowed to work in a game in that area. Just asking if any of you know the answer to that what do you think about it?
Posted on 10/21/10 at 2:59 pm to CaseyMc2
quote:
as seen in the stats over the length of the entire season
what are you talking about?
I ran an ANOVA on the penalty stats from 2002-2007 and the results were that there was NO DIFFERENCE in the amount of penalties for any of the teams analyzed.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 3:00 pm to SNAKE
quote:
4)LSU is one of 12 SEC schools . Do you think that 1/12 of the SEC officials are from La? If not , should there be ?
Actually, that's sort of a flawed premise. By that reasoning Alabama, Mississippi and Tennesee should have more representation than the other states since those states have two schools each.
But the whole, this guy lives in such and such a state is a stupid argument anyhow.
As far as being at a disadvantage of some sort, the two schools you are talking about, how is it that they don't just get outvoted 10-2 on everything?
Posted on 10/21/10 at 3:06 pm to CaseyMc2
quote:
But do they know the names of the crews before the game and can they choose to say we want a different set of ref's to work a given game? I just think that it is an unfair advantage for the Bama teams as seen in the stats over the length of the entire season. I do not think that a ref from a given arear should be allowed to work in a game in that area. Just asking if any of you know the answer to that what do you think about it?
How are we defining "a given area" and "that area"?
I know it's almost impossible for a fan to understand, but once you are working games at that level and been calling games for any period of time - all of the "fan" stuff is out the window. You can choose to believe it or not, but that is the reality - not all the bullshite about a guy plotting how best to frick a particular team in a given situation etc.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 3:11 pm to SNAKE
I have no idea what the vetting process is, but I do know that the SEC grades out officials and (as we saw last year) suspends them if things are obviously bad. If an official called enough plays over the course of a season or multiple seasons to raise a red flag, I am certain the league would then proclude him from calling games against that team if at all possible.
I don't think that having equal representation would be a bad thing, but what about states that have two schools in the league vs one? Would you be ok with 1/6th of the officials being from Alabama while only 1/12th were from Louisiana? I don't think you would ever be able to do that though, because then you would potentially be excluding good officials to keep a balance.
Could a neighbor slip a guy a few hundred dollars to make a bad call, yes that is possible, but how many other officials are out on the field, plus the guy in the replay booth? If a questionable call is made they can review it, and (as we saw in the AU/Ark game) the on field officials can confer and come to a decision that is then reviewed.
Any one person can be corrupted, but for it to reach the epidemic level some people are claming, it would have to go above and beyond one person. It would have to be crew wide and probably league wide.
I don't remember if I said this in my last post, but look at Mike Slive's bio. The guy is from up north, has degrees from schools like Dartmouth, Cornell, UVA and Georgetown. He was a lawyer and a judge and worked in atheltic departments at Dartmouth and Cornell, and in the league office of the PAC10 and Conference USA. He doesn't have ties to any particular SEC school, and I honestly think tht if there were a systematic fix in in favor of Auburn, ALabama, LSU or anyone, he would have to be in on it and if he was, why would he be favoring that particlar school?
The thing is, calls go for one team and against another all the time. We tend to remember those that impact our team negatively and forget those that help our team or were inconsequential.
As for Bama not having a holding call on them for a ton of games, hey that's great. Everyone knows that if you go by the rulebook you can call holding on virtually every play. The SEC officials apparently only call the obvious or egregious ones and I am ok with that. I would much rather see the game have some flow and rhythm to it, and let the players on the field play, than have the game stopped every couple of plays because of ticky-tack flags here and there.
I don't think that having equal representation would be a bad thing, but what about states that have two schools in the league vs one? Would you be ok with 1/6th of the officials being from Alabama while only 1/12th were from Louisiana? I don't think you would ever be able to do that though, because then you would potentially be excluding good officials to keep a balance.
Could a neighbor slip a guy a few hundred dollars to make a bad call, yes that is possible, but how many other officials are out on the field, plus the guy in the replay booth? If a questionable call is made they can review it, and (as we saw in the AU/Ark game) the on field officials can confer and come to a decision that is then reviewed.
Any one person can be corrupted, but for it to reach the epidemic level some people are claming, it would have to go above and beyond one person. It would have to be crew wide and probably league wide.
I don't remember if I said this in my last post, but look at Mike Slive's bio. The guy is from up north, has degrees from schools like Dartmouth, Cornell, UVA and Georgetown. He was a lawyer and a judge and worked in atheltic departments at Dartmouth and Cornell, and in the league office of the PAC10 and Conference USA. He doesn't have ties to any particular SEC school, and I honestly think tht if there were a systematic fix in in favor of Auburn, ALabama, LSU or anyone, he would have to be in on it and if he was, why would he be favoring that particlar school?
The thing is, calls go for one team and against another all the time. We tend to remember those that impact our team negatively and forget those that help our team or were inconsequential.
As for Bama not having a holding call on them for a ton of games, hey that's great. Everyone knows that if you go by the rulebook you can call holding on virtually every play. The SEC officials apparently only call the obvious or egregious ones and I am ok with that. I would much rather see the game have some flow and rhythm to it, and let the players on the field play, than have the game stopped every couple of plays because of ticky-tack flags here and there.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 3:19 pm to PJinAtl
quote:
Could a neighbor slip a guy a few hundred dollars to make a bad call, yes that is possible, but how many other officials are out on the field, plus the guy in the replay booth? If a questionable call is made they can review it, and (as we saw in the AU/Ark game) the on field officials can confer and come to a decision that is then reviewed.
Any one person can be corrupted, but for it to reach the epidemic level some people are claming, it would have to go above and beyond one person. It would have to be crew wide and probably league wide.
I'm wondering how you know which one to target. For example, let's say you want to go after the side judge - so how do you now guarantee that he has any sort of opportunity to have any influence over anything?
Maybe they have orders from the SEC. It's pretty amazing though that if that is the case they are able to keep 49 guys quiet - especially when you have 7 of them who have supposedly been ordered to cheat for Florida and then once they supposedly do, then they get suspended by the same people who supposedly ordered them to cheat. And then they just keep their mouths shut and take it.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 3:33 pm to 62zip
My only thing about this is what happened last year in the LSU/Bama game and it was pretty much taken care of if they prevent that replay ref from being in the booth when LSU comes to Bama or Auburn.
Now as for as the area a ref is from is like what we are talking about a ref from Bama and went to school at Bama working games in Bama especialy for big in conference games. I do not think it fair for a ref who is human to work a game in Alabama when in fact he is an Alumni from Bama or Auburn. Human, being the main aspect or factor of it, they will not or may not intentionaly but, if a certain call that may effect the outcome of a game, if there is any doubt about making that call, will make the call in favor of the home team or in this case his Alma mater.
We do not like to think about such things and as for myself I am in no way going to let it prevent me from enjoying this game that could turn out to be the best game of the year even the decade. I am looking forward to a great game and hope the ref's do not get in the way of it being a great game.
quote:
How are we defining "a given area" and "that area"?
Now as for as the area a ref is from is like what we are talking about a ref from Bama and went to school at Bama working games in Bama especialy for big in conference games. I do not think it fair for a ref who is human to work a game in Alabama when in fact he is an Alumni from Bama or Auburn. Human, being the main aspect or factor of it, they will not or may not intentionaly but, if a certain call that may effect the outcome of a game, if there is any doubt about making that call, will make the call in favor of the home team or in this case his Alma mater.
We do not like to think about such things and as for myself I am in no way going to let it prevent me from enjoying this game that could turn out to be the best game of the year even the decade. I am looking forward to a great game and hope the ref's do not get in the way of it being a great game.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 3:34 pm to WikiTiger
quote:
However, the SEC offices in Alabama argument is stupid.
Are you kidding?
The headquarters for the SEC has been in Birmingham, AL since 1948.
Over 60 years of DEEP ties in the state of Alabama. It doesn't matter where Slive is from.
Who do the SEC refs work for? The SEC.
Where do they get their pay checks? The SEC.
And that's the "over the table" money.
Football and politics are a little different in the south and there are politics in football.
Auburn and Alabama are in the hunt for an SEC and BCS championship. And to add to it, this is AFTER Auburn got screwed by the BCS and didn't even get to play for the NC after an undefeated season.
You can bet your sweet arse there are powerful people in Alabama with very bitter feelings over that one. This is Auburn's shot. After LSU, their only real contest is againt Bama. They have a limited time with Cam Newton.
It matters where the game is being played.
Here's something I've learned a while ago:
1. Don't expect a fair shake in the state of Alabama.
2. Don't leave the game up to the refs when you're in Alabama.
3. When Auburn or Alabama are in a championship hunt, anything is possible.
This post was edited on 10/21/10 at 3:38 pm
Posted on 10/21/10 at 3:36 pm to CaseyMc2
quote:The thing is, that story about the replay official being a Bama grad/booster has been disproven.
My only thing about this is what happened last year in the LSU/Bama game and it was pretty much taken care of if they prevent that replay ref from being in the booth when LSU comes to Bama or Auburn.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 3:37 pm to CaseyMc2
quote:
Now as for as the area a ref is from is like what we are talking about a ref from Bama and went to school at Bama working games in Bama especialy for big in conference games. I do not think it fair for a ref who is human to work a game in Alabama when in fact he is an Alumni from Bama or Auburn. Human, being the main aspect or factor of it, they will not or may not intentionaly but, if a certain call that may effect the outcome of a game, if there is any doubt about making that call, will make the call in favor of the home team or in this case his Alma mater.
Well, you can't work your alma mater, but if you have a guy who is a Bama grad and he works a game between Auburn and Tennessee, so what?
But again - this whole area thing comes up - what if a UGA grad is living in Birmingham or Huntsville or Mobile or wherever and gets Auburn vs. Vandy? Who fkin cares?
Posted on 10/21/10 at 3:40 pm to diehardfan
quote:
Over 60 years of DEEP ties in the state of Alabama. It doesn't matter where Slive is from.
And if the other 10 schools don't like the way he is running things, then they can easily fire his arse. It only takes 7.
quote:
And that's the "over the table" money.
Are you saying there is "under the table" money? Got anything to back that up?
I do love though that all these Bama fans are working behind the scenes on behalf of Auburn.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 3:47 pm to 62zip
quote:
And if the other 10 schools don't like the way he is running things, then they can easily fire his arse. It only takes 7.
Who said this has anything to do with Slive? It doesn't.
quote:
Are you saying there is "under the table" money?
Oh of course not. That wouldn't be right.
quote:
I do love though that all these Bama fans are working behind the scenes on behalf of Auburn.
I never said "Bama" fans were.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 3:49 pm to PJinAtl
quote:
The thing is, that story about the replay official being a Bama grad/booster has been disproven.
That ref Mr Redding was from Georgia Tech and he was friends with the Bear and in fact did paid speaches and in class work for the University of Bama. Yes I know ile I said as long as he does not work the games between LSU and Bama and Auburn as for as that goes I am happy with it.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 3:55 pm to diehardfan
quote:
Oh of course not. That wouldn't be right.
Back up your claim.
I'll be waiting.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 3:57 pm to CaseyMc2
quote:Are you talking about Rogers Redding? He is the supervisor of officials or whatever for the SEC. He was not the replay official for that game; he is never the replay official. The replay official was Gerald Hodges. Don't believe me? Check out this SI article on the game it names Hodges by name. As replay official, Hodges was the only person who could overturn or uphold the call. Can anyone prove that Redding was even in the replay booth? There are typcally only three people in the booth - the technician, the communicator and the replay official; I really doubt that the head of football officiating was working as either the technician (coding in each replay) or the communicator (buzzing the officials on the field when there is a stoppage for review).
That ref Mr Redding was from Georgia Tech and he was friends with the Bear and in fact did paid speaches and in class work for the University of Bama.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 4:03 pm to 62zip
quote:
I'll be waiting.
Hold your breath.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 4:15 pm to diehardfan
quote:
Hold your breath.
Yeah, that's what I figured.
Makes a good soundbyte though.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 4:26 pm to 62zip
quote:I'm not Wiki, but I do know a little more than most about stats. What Wiki is trying to do is futile, useless, and quite frankly, ignorant.
But Tell me Wiki, your a man of stats, numbers and measurables...
Are there things that satistical analyisis can not measure?
If so, is it plausible that the existance of random bias can escape the expert analysis (assuming you had all the data you so seeked)?
The answer to this question CAN NOT be solved by simply using the quantitative data he's using (penalties). In order to arrive at the answer, you'll also need "qualitative" data which, as others have pointed out, takes into account the timing of the calls. But even moreso, you must realize that penalties are only one area with which officiating affects the outcome of games. You must also consider catch/not a catch, fumble/not a fumble, inbounds/out of bounds, touchback/not a touchback, touchdown/not a touchdown, and of course, spotting the ball after each down.
The needed data, not only the quantitative, but also qualitative data to do a relevant and meaningful analysis does not exist.
Wiki, please cease your ridulous pursuit. Because you do not have good data, any conclusions you derive are meaningless and useless. In the world of quantitative analysis: crap in = crap out
Please quit putting out crap.
This post was edited on 10/21/10 at 4:28 pm
Posted on 10/21/10 at 4:28 pm to WikiTiger
I hate it when I agree with Wiki.
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