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Message
re: Poll - Rank LSU's head coaches for the past 50 years...
Posted on 12/24/08 at 2:43 pm to AlexLSU
Posted on 12/24/08 at 2:43 pm to AlexLSU
quote:
Les isn't even in his ballpark. Hell, Les isn't really even a freakin coach. He just hires assistants to do all the work for him. He could never take over the offense or defense and run it successfully, whereas Saban could with D and Meyer could with O.
That post came after I made this post.
quote:
I said this in an earlier thread, but people have this imaginary Nick Saban in there head. They believe he can't be out coached or out recruited all the while its consistently happening. EX: ULM
Notice I never even brought up Miles name, but you came back with a rant about how "Miles even isn't a freaking coach." It's safe to say you thought I was saying Miles was a better coach.
2
Posted on 12/24/08 at 2:48 pm to GeauxWarrior12
I answered your post by saying "No one is saying he's perfect" then elaborated on my earlier comments by separating my response to you with ", but seriously,".
Posted on 12/24/08 at 2:50 pm to AlexLSU
quote:
I answered your post by saying "No one is saying he's perfect" then elaborated on my earlier comments by separating my response to you with ", but seriously,".
Fair enough my friend
Posted on 12/24/08 at 2:50 pm to AlexLSU
quote:
Les took over this program with all that talent and held serve. If you really think saying 10.3 wins is the reason Les is the better coach, then you're fricking retarded for not looking at the circumstances surrounding those wins.
Miles - Katrina - 11 win, 2 loss season
Saban - UAB Loss at Home - 8 win, 4 loss season
quote:
Les isn't a horrible coach, but anyone who objectively (that means someone who doesn't just side with the guy at LSU with everything) thinks Les is a better coach than Saban has serious issues.
"Objectivity" on The Rant generally means you hide under that objectivity umbrella & pull for Alabama's coach, because he popped your National Championship cherry. What do you Sabanista's want or hope to gain by doing so?
Posted on 12/24/08 at 2:57 pm to Sammich
quote:
Miles - Katrina - 11 win, 2 loss season
Miles' one very good season. I can honestly say he wasn't impressive in the three years following despite wins and losses. Wins and losses, despite being the simplest indicator of a good coach, are not always telling of a good coach. Bad coaches can do well with superior talent, and fantastic coaches can do decent with shite talent. It depends on the situation.
quote:
Saban - UAB Loss at Home - 8 win, 4 loss season
Was the talent that season close to this season, in which Miles has lost 5 games?
quote:
Objectivity" on The Rant generally means you hide under that objectivity umbrella & pull for Alabama's coach, because he popped your National Championship cherry. What do you Sabanista's want or hope to gain by doing so?
People think defending Saban means you have some other hidden agenda. I'm an LSU fan and always will be, but I never let that cloud my judgment. The fact that everyone outside of the LSU fanbase thinks that Saban is a better coach should be a decent enough indicator to most on here that they're just being homers.
Posted on 12/24/08 at 3:10 pm to Ace Midnight
In terms of pure coaching ability and sucess my list is as follows:
1) Arnsparger - I know he didn't coach long but he was a defensive genius. Unfortunately he was at the end of his career when we got him.
2) Saban - I was sad to see him leave.
3) Dietzel
4) Miles
5)McClendon - Sorry Cholly but you have some tough competition.
6) Bo Rein - At least he didn't do anything bad. The last 4 on the list did more harm than good.
7)Dinardo
8)Stovall
9)Archer
10)Hallman - Worst I've ever seen.
1) Arnsparger - I know he didn't coach long but he was a defensive genius. Unfortunately he was at the end of his career when we got him.
2) Saban - I was sad to see him leave.
3) Dietzel
4) Miles
5)McClendon - Sorry Cholly but you have some tough competition.
6) Bo Rein - At least he didn't do anything bad. The last 4 on the list did more harm than good.
7)Dinardo
8)Stovall
9)Archer
10)Hallman - Worst I've ever seen.
Posted on 12/24/08 at 3:35 pm to AlexLSU
quote:
Miles' one very good season. I can honestly say he wasn't impressive in the three years following despite wins and losses.
No other LSU Football coach in school history has achieved 3 - 11+ win seasons topped off in year 3 with a National Championship. Not even close.
quote:
Bad coaches can do well with superior talent, and fantastic coaches can do decent with shite talent. It depends on the situation.
Ron Zook, all the talent in the world at Florida couldn't win more than 8 games.
quote:
Was the talent that season close to this season, in which Miles has lost 5 games?
With No QB & a new secondary? Absolutely.
quote:
People think defending Saban means you have some other hidden agenda. I'm an LSU fan and always will be, but I never let that cloud my judgment. The fact that everyone outside of the LSU fanbase thinks that Saban is a better coach should be a decent enough indicator to most on here that they're just being homers.
I've been out of the State several times this year & I've shown people this website. They think you are fricking crazy. This is the typical reaction: "This is an LSU fansite?" So I've been told. "Now way! These people seriously want to get rid of Miles? The one who just won the National Championship?" Yep. "Why?? What the hell are the people down in Louisiana smoking?
Send him on over to us!" Also: "Why the hell would they pull for Saban? That's just fricking weird." Tell me about it. "Don't they know he is coaching against their school?"
Posted on 12/24/08 at 7:21 pm to Sammich
quote:
No other LSU Football coach in school history has achieved 3 - 11+ win seasons topped off in year 3 with a National Championship. Not even close.
Name one who had close to the same amount of talent. Also, if you come up with one, name one who did so poorly once the majority of the previous coach's talent was gone.
quote:
Ron Zook, all the talent in the world at Florida couldn't win more than 8 games.
Larry Coker, all the the talent in the world at Miami and went undefeated and lost one game on a BS call the year after.
quote:
With No QB & a new secondary? Absolutely.
New secondary? How long have Hawkins, Coleman, Taylor, and Eugene (the starters for the majority of the season) been at LSU. And if you seriously, truly believe the talent was the same, you are a complete and utter fricktard who is firmly planted in delusionville.
quote:
I've been out of the State several times this year & I've shown people this website. They think you are fricking crazy. This is the typical reaction: "This is an LSU fansite?" So I've been told. "Now way! These people seriously want to get rid of Miles? The one who just won the National Championship?" Yep. "Why?? What the hell are the people down in Louisiana smoking? Send him on over to us!"
Showing other people in your family across the country, who obviously share your lack of intelligence, doesn't really matter. Go to any major sports forum and ask people if Les Miles is a better coach than Nick Saban.
quote:
Also: "Why the hell would they pull for Saban? That's just fricking weird." Tell me about it. "Don't they know he is coaching against their school?"
Out of sight, out of mind for you I guess. Completely forget about the guy who is responsible for Les having a job at LSU.
Posted on 12/24/08 at 10:24 pm to Sammich
quote:
1) Saban
2) McClendon
3) Armsberger (sp)
4) Dietzel
5) Miles
quote:
rpg37
Birth Date: April 22, 1987
You were born in 1987. Do you feel qualified to talk about "Armsberger"? Cholly Mac? Was your Dad even born when Paul Dietzel was coaching LSU?
Sammich, tell me where you think I'm going wrong. That is my ranking. I know my history. I don't have to be as old as Lou Holtz to know who I think is the best.
Posted on 12/25/08 at 3:26 am to GeauxWarrior12
The idea of Nick coordinating "D" and Urban doing the "O" on the same sideline would be one hell of a nightmare for the rest of us.
Posted on 12/25/08 at 7:33 am to sclary
quote:
You have to put the guys that won the NC ahead of the rest imo.
And that's certainly a standard to which many adhere, and I respect that as a criteria. However, in looking at the total body of work, I placed a guy at the top without a national championship. For the sake of argument, say Miles had come in and won the BCS in 2005 - then left to coach the Dallas Cowboys - would he be higher than everybody but Dietzel and Sabna? So therefore, the mere fact of a championship is just one factor, and a big one, but not the only factor.
Arnsparger scores very highly with some fans, despite not "really winning anything", certainly nothing in his tenure suggested "greatness", but I do regard him as a great coach, in a total package sort of way, and he got very good to excellent results (if not quite outstanding). However, many have Arnsparger above all of the championship-winning coaches, and I disagree with that. There is no, real objective justification for placing him above Mac, Dietzel, Miles or Saban. However, he is clearly above, by a significant margin, all the other coaches of the past 50 years.
Posted on 12/25/08 at 9:12 am to rpg37
quote:
Sammich, tell me where you think I'm going wrong. That is my ranking. I know my history. I don't have to be as old as Lou Holtz to know who I think is the best.
rpg37,
Was not meant as an insult at all really. I am just always surprised when fans post about coaches & times they can't really know about, myself included. I don't post about the early to mid 1970's or before that. I've read about it, met many of the people involved during that era. But have found that being around a certain time period & reading about it is quite different. I love to read all the stories about Dietzel & early days of Cholly Mac. One thing about your list you might want to consider is Bill Arnsparger. Arsparger designed the only undefeated Defense in the NFL, the 1972 Miami Dolphins. (See: No-Name-Defense & also the "Killer B's" - Washington Redskins) Most older & pretty knowledgable LSU folks chuckle a little when younger fans talk about Saban being a "Defensive guru". Arnsparger is the Best Defensive mind to coach Football at LSU. Check it out for yourself. At that time, it was considered quite a coupe to get him at LSU. Also winning percentage does matter. Ultimately that is why any coach is here. Style points don't mean much. Coaches jumping up & down on the sideline acting like someone stole their banana looks ridiculous IMO. Colleges hire a coach to Win, not for a sideline sideshow perfomance.
Posted on 12/25/08 at 9:26 am to AlexLSU
quote:
Name one who had close to the same amount of talent. Also, if you come up with one, name one who did so poorly once the majority of the previous coach's talent was gone.
Here's some of the 2001 Defensive roster:
LB: Bradie James (NFL)
LB: Trev Faulk (All-SEC)
LB: Jeremy Lawrence (Freshman All-SEC)
LB: Lionel Turner (All-SEC)
DL: Jarvis Green (NFL)
DL: Chad Lavalias (NFL)
DL: Howard Green (NFL)
DL: Marcus Spears (NFL)
DL: Marquis Hill (NFL)
DL: Melvin Oliver (NFL)
DB: Corey Webster (NFL)
DB: Ryan Clark (All-SEC)
DB: Norman LeJeune (NFL)
DB: Demetrius Hookfin (All-SEC)
DB: Travis Daniel (NFL)
DB: Randall Gay
Please explain how this Defense allowed Spurrier to put up 632 Offensive yards. For the record "Mallveto" did not allow 500 yards to any team this season. And the "Defensive guru" strikes again..
quote:
Larry Coker, all the the talent in the world at Miami and went undefeated and lost one game on a BS call the year after.
Larry Coker was fired due to 2 televised fights, drug problems within the program & numerous player arrests. Not because of his W/L record. His winning percentage is 80% which is better than his former boss Butch Davis who won 71.8% & much better than Randy Shannon who recruited almost all of the current players & went 12-12 after Coker's left.
quote:
New secondary? How long have Hawkins, Coleman, Taylor, and Eugene (the starters for the majority of the season) been at LSU. And if you seriously, truly believe the talent was the same, you are a complete and utter fricktard who is firmly planted in delusionville
Yes a new secondary. Sorry, who did you think Started last year in the secondary besides Curtis Taylor? Starting CB Patrick Peterson was in High School this time last year.
quote:
Showing other people in your family across the country, who obviously share your lack of intelligence, doesn't really matter. Go to any major sports forum and ask people if Les Miles is a better coach than Nick Saban.
No, I don't show members of my family this site.
What I posted was accurate. I don't need to go to some SEC forum to hear what other SEC fans think about Miles. Chances are Miles has already beaten their coach. Also a damn good chance thier coach has never won a National Championship. Perhaps you should visit some Ohio State, Notre Dame & Miami forums? I was talking more about Big 10 Country & out west, away from typical SEC fans. These people don't understand your type. A coach who averages 10+ wins per season is doing a damn good job. They are literally laughing at you for calling out your own Coach who won it all in January of this year. Incredulous would be the word. Then again I guess he isn't your coach..
quote:
Out of sight, out of mind for you I guess. Completely forget about the guy who is responsible for Les having a job at LSU
Saban quit on LSU. He fricked up much of the 2005 recruiting class. There was a job opening if that's what you mean by Saban being "Responsible" for Miles job. But, if I remember correctly & I do, Saban recommended the embattled Arkansas Houston Dale Nutt as a replacement who moved down in scale to the Ole Miss job. Thank goodness the LSU Brass did not listen to him. I see NO reason to think anything about Bama's head coach, other than LSU/Bama games & recruiting.
Posted on 12/25/08 at 9:46 am to Ace Midnight
Miles
Saban
Arnsparger
McClendon
Dietzel
Archer
DiNardo
Stovall
Hallman
Saban
Arnsparger
McClendon
Dietzel
Archer
DiNardo
Stovall
Hallman
Posted on 12/25/08 at 10:07 am to LSUfannLA
I think people have just completely misremembered Saban's tenure. Which is fine, but there's a sort of mental disconnect that goes on with it. It's like we've whitewashed all of the bad things (losing to UAB, only one 10-win season, the poor special teams play, those awful abusive press conferences) and only chose to remember the good things. Like Saban's tenure was one season long. 2003 was awesome, but it was also Saban's lone 10-win season.
I think Saban is a great coach. But he used us. And I don't keep pining for the girl who left me. And I'm willing to remember he did a lot of good things and a some bad things as well. And to whoever said Saban brought the fans back: that is completely unture. Saay what you will, but it was Dinardo who got this team out of the depths of the Hallman Era. He got us the white jerseys and the H-style goalposts back. He got Tiger Stadium rocking again. His tenure ended badly, but Dinardo does not get nearly enough credit for the good things he did. He's like the anti-Saban, in which we've whitewashed all of the good out of his tenure and chosen only to remember the bad. Some of the things that Saban gets credit for, those were things Dinardo did, especially getting Louisiana recruiting back up and running. Saban owes more to Dinardo than his defenders would like to admit.
Also, I think people underrated how hard it is to stay on top. Miles had three straight 11 win seasons. The litany of teams he has beaten and the accomplishments acheived are unrivalled in LSU football history given his short tenure. i do think he merits a deduction for this season, but Miles did what Saban couldn't do: win consistently.
My rankings:
Cholly Mac
Miles
Saban
Dietzel
Arnspanger
Dinardo
Stovall
Archer
Hallman
I think Saban is a great coach. But he used us. And I don't keep pining for the girl who left me. And I'm willing to remember he did a lot of good things and a some bad things as well. And to whoever said Saban brought the fans back: that is completely unture. Saay what you will, but it was Dinardo who got this team out of the depths of the Hallman Era. He got us the white jerseys and the H-style goalposts back. He got Tiger Stadium rocking again. His tenure ended badly, but Dinardo does not get nearly enough credit for the good things he did. He's like the anti-Saban, in which we've whitewashed all of the good out of his tenure and chosen only to remember the bad. Some of the things that Saban gets credit for, those were things Dinardo did, especially getting Louisiana recruiting back up and running. Saban owes more to Dinardo than his defenders would like to admit.
Also, I think people underrated how hard it is to stay on top. Miles had three straight 11 win seasons. The litany of teams he has beaten and the accomplishments acheived are unrivalled in LSU football history given his short tenure. i do think he merits a deduction for this season, but Miles did what Saban couldn't do: win consistently.
My rankings:
Cholly Mac
Miles
Saban
Dietzel
Arnspanger
Dinardo
Stovall
Archer
Hallman
Posted on 12/25/08 at 2:38 pm to Baloo
quote:
I think Saban is a great coach. But he used us. And I don't keep pining for the girl who left me. And I'm willing to remember he did a lot of good things and a some bad things as well. And to whoever said Saban brought the fans back: that is completely unture. Saay what you will, but it was Dinardo who got this team out of the depths of the Hallman Era. He got us the white jerseys and the H-style goalposts back. He got Tiger Stadium rocking again. His tenure ended badly, but Dinardo does not get nearly enough credit for the good things he did. He's like the anti-Saban, in which we've whitewashed all of the good out of his tenure and chosen only to remember the bad. Some of the things that Saban gets credit for, those were things Dinardo did, especially getting Louisiana recruiting back up and running. Saban owes more to Dinardo than his defenders would like to admit.
Baloo - I've said as much, scattered over dozens of posts, back several years.
However, what normally takes me three or four paragaphs (really, probably six or seven with responses and follow-ups) you've distilled very eloquently down to one long paragraph.
Posted on 12/25/08 at 6:25 pm to Ace Midnight
It is not often I'm complimented on my brevity. So thanks.
Posted on 12/25/08 at 7:12 pm to rpg37
1. Nick Saban
REST ARE NOT WORTHY
REST ARE NOT WORTHY
Posted on 12/25/08 at 7:18 pm to Baloo
quote:
but Miles did what Saban couldn't do: win consistently.
You can give Miles all the credit you want, but I seriously doubt anyone believes that there were three teams with the NFL potential and overall depth at LSU comparable to the 05, 06, and 07 teams. Those teams were the result of fantastic 2003 and 2004 recruiting classes brought in by Nick Saban. If you want to give Les all the credit in the world for going 1/3 in the SEC with that talent, then that's fine, but I think this year was a pretty big indicator of what kind of coach he is. Saban's only questionable year at LSU is 2002. That team had a decent amount of star power, but no talented depth what so ever. That was the year before all of his recruits put it all together (the 2001 class). People look at LSU that year and talk about how we severly overachieved, but the fact that we had some isolated stars and no depth does not make us a good team. The 2000 season was too early for any indications, and the 2004 season was actually a very good year. People talk about that year like it was the downfall of Saban, when in fact two of our losses were complete tossups. We lost by one point to a 14-0 team and on a last second hail mary. I'd hardly call that season a disappointment, especially considering the talent that year relative to LSU teams now.
Les managed a bunch of freak athletes. The only thing he's done extremely well from a coaching standpoint is guide the team emotionally through Katrina, which is admirable. When you are wondering who is the better coach, ask yourself this: If Les had come in originally when Saban did, would LSU be in the position we are in today? I say no.
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