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Started By
Message
re: LSU All-time basketball team vs. anyone else's
Posted on 1/26/09 at 6:26 pm to King Joey
Posted on 1/26/09 at 6:26 pm to King Joey
King Joey,
Good points and fairly argued.
The only thing I'd say is to look at how Chamberlain was defended in college. Routinely TRIPLE teamed by his opponents. That's why he left and went pro. All teams did against Kansas was stall and triple team Wilt.
Be fair about Hack-a-Shaq. It was invented because he sucks at shooting free throws. If he'd been a 65% or better free throw shooter the strategy would never have been employed.
Now about the top 5 of all time. This 25 Greatest Players in College Basketball lists 11 centers among its' number and none of them are named Shaquille O'Neal. So, my argument saying he is not among the top 5 is not only valid it is backed by expert opinions.
Cheers and thanks for a great discussion. This thread is making those days without football bearable.
Good points and fairly argued.
The only thing I'd say is to look at how Chamberlain was defended in college. Routinely TRIPLE teamed by his opponents. That's why he left and went pro. All teams did against Kansas was stall and triple team Wilt.
Be fair about Hack-a-Shaq. It was invented because he sucks at shooting free throws. If he'd been a 65% or better free throw shooter the strategy would never have been employed.
Now about the top 5 of all time. This 25 Greatest Players in College Basketball lists 11 centers among its' number and none of them are named Shaquille O'Neal. So, my argument saying he is not among the top 5 is not only valid it is backed by expert opinions.
Cheers and thanks for a great discussion. This thread is making those days without football bearable.
This post was edited on 1/26/09 at 6:29 pm
2
Posted on 1/26/09 at 6:26 pm to VABuckeye
quote:He also didn't have Tourette's and degenerative injuries to both ankles.
Walter Davis was up there and proved it as a pro. He certainly had a more prolific pro career than Chris Jackson.
quote:MJ never won a tournament game (college or pro) with the supporting cast CJ had. Not even close. MJ was never on a team that didn't have 3 times as much talent on the floor (besides him) as CJ had at LSU. How many double or triple teams did MJ see on a regular basis in college, playing along side the likes of Sam Perkins, James Worthy, Matt Doherty, Brad Daugherty, etc.?
BTW, the Chris Jackson vs. the Bulls video. He had a great game. How many great games did MJ have? You tell me who the dominate player was between the two and who has the rings to prove it.
Posted on 1/26/09 at 6:27 pm to VABuckeye
quote:
Be fair about Hack-a-Shaq. It was invented because he sucks at shooting free throws. If he'd been a 65% or better free throw shooter the strategy would never have been employed.
Shaq actually wasn't bad at free throws until he got the NBA
Posted on 1/26/09 at 6:30 pm to lsumatt
quote:
Shaq actually wasn't bad at free throws until he got the NBA
Correct and when was the strategy employed? In the NBA. So why is it an argument when we're discussing them as college players?
This post was edited on 1/26/09 at 6:32 pm
Posted on 1/26/09 at 6:31 pm to The Boat
quote:Pete averaged over 5 assists per game in his career at LSU with no other scorers on his team. You don't think he could find Shaq, CJ, Stro, etc.?
This team wouldn't work well with Pete jacking up shots. No one else would get enough touches to make an impact.
Posted on 1/26/09 at 6:33 pm to King Joey
You know, this discussion would be so much more fun if we could discuss it over beer and food.
This post was edited on 1/26/09 at 6:34 pm
Posted on 1/26/09 at 6:36 pm to VABuckeye
quote:So Bill Russell -- by himself -- would do what only a handful of combinations of two or three great players could do? I know Russell is/was great, but we have no idea what it would take to shut down Shaq one on one in college for a sustained period because it literally never happened.
Russell would frustrate the hell out of him with his defense alone.
Posted on 1/26/09 at 6:40 pm to King Joey
quote:
So Bill Russell -- by himself -- would do what only a handful of combinations of two or three great players could do? I know Russell is/was great, but we have no idea what it would take to shut down Shaq one on one in college for a sustained period because it literally never happened.
Well, that's the thing. We're talking about the best of the best of certain generations. It's my belief that Russell could do that defensively because he was able to do it against Chamberlain who was one of the most prolific scorers in NBA history. He frustrated Wilt with his defense alone.
Despite the great players that Shaq matched up with it is my opinion that defensively he never player against someone of Russell's abilities.
So yes, it is a fair assumption for me to believe that Russell could have handled Shaq defensively since he could handle Chamberlain whom no one else could handle defensively.
Posted on 1/26/09 at 6:40 pm to VABuckeye
quote:
Correct and when was the strategy employed?
Hack-a-Shaq definately started in college.
I dont remember what his FT % was at LSU...but let's say it was 65%. It still makes sense to use some big bench thug who has 5 fouls to give, to foul Shaq instead of letting him get a sure dunk. If Shaq got the ball in the lane in college...well...it was a dunk...period. So in College they would play a zone with 3 guys draped over Shaq and try to wear him down and frustrate him and put him on the line before he could get an easy dunk. Hell, even if he shot 75% FTs it would make sense.
I know one thing, I dont see anyone breaking his 17 blocks in one game mark any time soon...
Posted on 1/26/09 at 6:41 pm to VABuckeye
quote:The day basketball becomes a solo sport, numbers like the ones you gave could conceivably be relevant to a discussion like this. We are talking about the abilities of a single individual, and you are talking about team performances. Totally unrelated.
Those are the facts about their college careers. Now tell me who achieved more in college. Objectively just looking at the facts.
Again, Shaq never had the supporting cast any of those other guys had. He was double and triple teamed over 90% of the time, and fouled as well more often than not. Comparing his raw numbers under those circumstances to the raw numbers of guys playing for Coach Wooten's UCLA juggernauts is laughable.
Posted on 1/26/09 at 6:45 pm to King Joey
quote:
Russell would frustrate the hell out of him with his defense alone.
Someone needs to go learn their bball history again. The celtics team may have beaten or even in some instances dominated Chamberlain's teams....But Wilt dominated Russell. If you think Bill Russell was blocking Wilt's shots and frustrating him you're nuts. Wilt had his way for the most part, but the Celtics were an all-star team. Wilt finally got help in the latter part of his career in LA.
Posted on 1/26/09 at 6:46 pm to VABuckeye
quote:Honestly, having watched ever college game he played and most of his first several years in the pros, you have it backwards. He was much more dominant in college but never in ways that produced numbers.
I actually think you have it backwards. I think Shaq is a much better pro than as a college player.
quote:He developed that polish as a Sophomore and a Junior. It just didn't show through the triple teams until he got to the NBA where it was much more of a man-to-man situation and his dominance could shine through.
In the pros he became a polished player to go along with his raw power.
If you can find any video in college of anyone going one on one against Shaq, it was hysterical. No one came close to slowing him down. He might have been stopped one on one maybe one or two times in his entire last two years, but I couldn't swear it was even that many. I can't actually remember it ever happening, but it's possible that somebody got lucky once or twice.
Posted on 1/26/09 at 6:51 pm to King Joey
King Joey.
Here's what I responded to in that post.
The poster states that the others achieved more in the pros and infers that in college it was a different story.
I simply posted the stats that show that this isn't true.
BTW, those 2 guys that got player of the year 3 times? Those were individual (solo) accomplishments.
Here's what I responded to in that post.
quote:
You sound like you are strictly going on what they were in the pros because in college Shaq would totally out muscle any of those guys(who they were in college) in the post. I know some of those guys achieved more in the pros. We're talking about them as college athletes. Bill Walton? Gimme a break. He was a great center but Shaq would clown him. Wilt gave up nearly 40 lbs to Shaq. Puhlease.
The poster states that the others achieved more in the pros and infers that in college it was a different story.
I simply posted the stats that show that this isn't true.
BTW, those 2 guys that got player of the year 3 times? Those were individual (solo) accomplishments.
Posted on 1/26/09 at 6:53 pm to VABuckeye
quote:Yes, but they are obviously ranking by performance of the teams (championships, etc.). They have Pete 5th on that list. If you're not counting team accomplishments, you cannot put Pete down to 5th place with a straight face.
This 25 Greatest Players in College Basketball lists 11 centers among its' number and none of them are named Shaquille O'Neal. So, my argument saying he is not among the top 5 is not only valid it is backed by expert opinions.
There are many, many Centers whose teams did much better than Shaq's ever did. But not one of them were as lacking in supporting cast (including the coach, btw) as Shaq was. The only time he ever had any kind of legitimately comparable support to what those other guys had was as a freshman when CJ was there. But Shaq was just too raw right off the bat to be the true Shaq he became the next year. Sadly, CJ's ankles and Tourettes couldn't hold off one more year to let us see what could have been . . . I don't think even Dale Brown could have screwed that up.
Posted on 1/26/09 at 6:57 pm to VABuckeye
quote:Because it was employed in college against Shaq. Taking a chance at putting him on the line as a 64% free throw shooter was a far, far better proposition than letting him shoot the ball (even with the triple teams).
Correct and when was the strategy employed? In the NBA. So why is it an argument when we're discussing them as college players?
Posted on 1/26/09 at 7:00 pm to VABuckeye
quote:Yes, and it has been . . . often!
You know, this discussion would be so much more fun if we could discuss it over beer and food.
If you can't tell, this is one of my favorite "all time" debates. I've had it several times with many different people over lots and lots of beer and food!
:cheers:Posted on 1/26/09 at 7:01 pm to King Joey
Hmmm, at least half the players on that list didn't win championships and David Robinson played for freaking Navy. Now there's a player who had NO supporting cast around him in college.
I won't argue that the championships didn't help the rankings but those are all great, great players. I'm not quite so sure about the absolute order of the rankings but it's not an absurd list by any stretch of the imagination.
I won't argue that the championships didn't help the rankings but those are all great, great players. I'm not quite so sure about the absolute order of the rankings but it's not an absurd list by any stretch of the imagination.
This post was edited on 1/26/09 at 7:02 pm
Posted on 1/26/09 at 7:07 pm to VABuckeye
quote:And Laettner got player of the year over Shaq, too. Was that an "individual (solo)" accomplishment that he got because he was a better Center than Shaq, without any regard to the fact that he just happened to be on the back to back National Championship winning Duke teams?
BTW, those 2 guys that got player of the year 3 times? Those were individual (solo) accomplishments
Player of the Year awards -- even more so than Heismans -- are sorely subject to the success and complements of the team. A guy that has a lot of supporting talent affording him frequent opportunities to score against overmatched opponents one on one, and enabling his team to win tourney games/championships, is far FAR more likely to win individual awards like "Player of the Year".
quote:Actually, he is saying they performed better in the pros than they did in college, and that Shaq was closer to his pro-caliber self in college than they were. And that is true. Shaq absolutely clowned every single person he matched up against in college.
The poster states that the others achieved more in the pros and infers that in college it was a different story.
Posted on 1/26/09 at 8:11 pm to King Joey
quote:
What others? What other Center played with zero supporting cast, had a defense invented against them (hack a shaq), and was facing double and triple teams literally 90+% of the time downcourt, and still had even remotely Shaq's numbers? Jabbar? Never had to face the defensive pressure Shaq did in college.
Wait, are you telling me no one ever double teamed Jabbar? Or Chamberlain, who was triple teamed to the point that he no longer wanted to play college ball, yet still averaged 30 pts?
quote:
What Center is in that all-timer conversation with a supporting cast like Vernel Singleton, Maurice Williamson, Geert Hammink, TJ Pugh, etc.?
Why does it only apply to centers? Maravich, West, Bird, Baylor, Duncan are among that list that ESPN published. I don't remember them having stellar supporting casts. Is that list biased against Shaq only?
And by the way, the Hack a Shaq was his own damn fault...guess what, make your free throws and they can't do that to you.
ETA...I obviously didn't read some of the later posts before I posted so I repeated several things others said...ie supporting cast, success of Hack a Shaq, Chamberlain's early exit from Kansas etc.
This post was edited on 1/26/09 at 8:16 pm
Posted on 1/26/09 at 8:20 pm to Obi-Wan Tiger
wilt chamberlain and danny manning are easily the best 1-2 punch i have seen on any of these teams (save maybe ucla).
raef lafrentz, paul pierce, jojo white, jacque vaugh, and clde lovellete give the team depth and a studly starting five. this is ridiculous.
raef lafrentz, paul pierce, jojo white, jacque vaugh, and clde lovellete give the team depth and a studly starting five. this is ridiculous.
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