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re: Are we incapable of admitting that process matters?
Posted on 11/29/10 at 3:56 pm to Tiger JJ
Posted on 11/29/10 at 3:56 pm to Tiger JJ
I'm never exactly sure what "process" means. I haven't read this whole thread, but judging by your OP it seems your definition of "process" is winning margin. Others define it as "looking good."
I routinely get the sense that unless we rack up 500 yards of offense, score 65 and shut out every opponent, people will say they aren't happy with the "process."
Really, it's just some abstract way to complain about something.
Of course, I'd love to see us soundly blow out some SEC teams (then again, we did blowout a top 25 Mississippi State, and a team likely head to a BCS bowl, West Virginia, was never as close as score would indicate).
People point to the "luck" of the Tennessee game and yes, LSU was fortunate that Tennessee had 13 men on the field, no doubt. But we also crushed that team in yardage. Had the players not been careless with the football (notably, a needless DeAngelo Peterson fumble), the game wouldn't have been in doubt. Now, people will blame that on coaching. I have a hard time blaming coaching on a player trying to stretch the ball out 3 yards short of the 1st down in the middle of the field.
We dominated Florida handily as well. Is it the coaches' fault that Patrick Peterson fumbled his only punt of the year, giving them the ball in the redzone? Or that we yielded our lone special teams return TD of the year?
What is process? At one point do you acknowledge that it's not poor coaching but players not doing right?
To me, the general thing I see is that in the NFL a win or loss is generally accredited to the player's doing well/poorly. In college, that is usually attributed to the coaches. I'm not sure why. I just don't understand why we are to assume a college player is just a mindless robot who will only do as well or as poorly as his coach tells him. Some players exceeded their coach's instruction. Others fall below it.
Basically what I'm saying is that I don't really understand what "process" is other than a cute way of saying "I wish we blew everyone the frick out and I'll criticize the coaching staff if we don't."
A lot of times when Alabama (or this year, Auburn) win close games, all people (media, mostly) talk about is how gritty and tough and well coached they were to pull that win out. Yet, when LSU does it, we're "lucky" or "fortunate" to have survived Miles pathetic coaching to sneak out another win.
I routinely get the sense that unless we rack up 500 yards of offense, score 65 and shut out every opponent, people will say they aren't happy with the "process."
Really, it's just some abstract way to complain about something.
Of course, I'd love to see us soundly blow out some SEC teams (then again, we did blowout a top 25 Mississippi State, and a team likely head to a BCS bowl, West Virginia, was never as close as score would indicate).
People point to the "luck" of the Tennessee game and yes, LSU was fortunate that Tennessee had 13 men on the field, no doubt. But we also crushed that team in yardage. Had the players not been careless with the football (notably, a needless DeAngelo Peterson fumble), the game wouldn't have been in doubt. Now, people will blame that on coaching. I have a hard time blaming coaching on a player trying to stretch the ball out 3 yards short of the 1st down in the middle of the field.
We dominated Florida handily as well. Is it the coaches' fault that Patrick Peterson fumbled his only punt of the year, giving them the ball in the redzone? Or that we yielded our lone special teams return TD of the year?
What is process? At one point do you acknowledge that it's not poor coaching but players not doing right?
To me, the general thing I see is that in the NFL a win or loss is generally accredited to the player's doing well/poorly. In college, that is usually attributed to the coaches. I'm not sure why. I just don't understand why we are to assume a college player is just a mindless robot who will only do as well or as poorly as his coach tells him. Some players exceeded their coach's instruction. Others fall below it.
Basically what I'm saying is that I don't really understand what "process" is other than a cute way of saying "I wish we blew everyone the frick out and I'll criticize the coaching staff if we don't."
A lot of times when Alabama (or this year, Auburn) win close games, all people (media, mostly) talk about is how gritty and tough and well coached they were to pull that win out. Yet, when LSU does it, we're "lucky" or "fortunate" to have survived Miles pathetic coaching to sneak out another win.
3
Posted on 11/29/10 at 3:58 pm to OBUDan
quote:
To me, the general thing I see is that in the NFL a win or loss is generally accredited to the player's doing well/poorly. In college, that is usually attributed to the coaches. I'm not sure why. I just don't understand why we are to assume a college player is just a mindless robot who will only do as well or as poorly as his coach tells him. Some players exceeded their coach's instruction. Others fall below it.
We dont really want to come down hard on the players. Easier to attack the coaches. This does not apply to QBs though.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 3:59 pm to biglego
quote:
To me, the general thing I see is that in the NFL a win or loss is generally accredited to the player's doing well/poorly. In college, that is usually attributed to the coaches. I'm not sure why.
Actually, its the exact opposite.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 4:00 pm to Tiger JJ
Look here!
No creampuffs on this list just SEC schools - 68% winning record. As a frame of reference over its total history LSU has a 64% winning rate against all opponents (creampuffs included). The winningest program in the SEC, Alabama, has a .695 all time win percentage.
From the list above, it looks to me like we beat the teams we are supposed to beat for the most part.
Kentucky got us once. They had a pretty good team in '07. They beat Florida St. in the Music City Bowl to finish 8-5 that year, but still no excuse. We should have won that one in my opinion.
Tenn got us once Miles first year in that epic come back game. No excuse for that either really, even though the team was dealing with the Katrina aftermath and had to reschedule some early games etc.
UGA gave us a beat down in the SECCG Miles first year I think, but if I remember right our starting QB got hurt in that game.
Besides the obvious powerhouses FL, AU, and Bama, that leaves Ole Miss and Arky with wins over us.
What can I say, the 2008 season was a debacle with the co-defensive coordinators and the loss of our 5-star QB and all the pick 6s - but the Ole Miss and Arky games that season were disappointing. Les kind of lost his team there at the end.
But to his credit, he got most of that fixed the next year. Still, the Ole Miss game in '09, was more than disappointing.
Arky has had some good teams the last few years, specifically last year and this year with Mallett, still we probably should have beat them in '07. But they did have some athletes in McFadden and Felix Jones that year.
My point is, looking at this what's your major beef with Miles resume'? And don't say "the way he wins" or "take away the lucky wins on the margin" - I've been through that.
Remember, over the long haul - "They are what their record says they are"!
quote:
In the SEC, Les Miles has compiled these records:
21-9 vs the SEC West
13-7 vs the SEC East (including 1-1 in the SECCG)
6-0 vs Miss St
4-2 vs Bama
4-2 vs Ole Miss
4-2 vs Auburn
3-3 vs Arkansas
2-0 vs South Carolina
3-0 vs Vanderbilt
3-1 vs Tennessee (1-0 SECCG)
3-3 vs Florida
1-1 vs Kentucky
1-2 vs UGA (0-1 SECCG)
No creampuffs on this list just SEC schools - 68% winning record. As a frame of reference over its total history LSU has a 64% winning rate against all opponents (creampuffs included). The winningest program in the SEC, Alabama, has a .695 all time win percentage.
From the list above, it looks to me like we beat the teams we are supposed to beat for the most part.
Kentucky got us once. They had a pretty good team in '07. They beat Florida St. in the Music City Bowl to finish 8-5 that year, but still no excuse. We should have won that one in my opinion.
Tenn got us once Miles first year in that epic come back game. No excuse for that either really, even though the team was dealing with the Katrina aftermath and had to reschedule some early games etc.
UGA gave us a beat down in the SECCG Miles first year I think, but if I remember right our starting QB got hurt in that game.
Besides the obvious powerhouses FL, AU, and Bama, that leaves Ole Miss and Arky with wins over us.
What can I say, the 2008 season was a debacle with the co-defensive coordinators and the loss of our 5-star QB and all the pick 6s - but the Ole Miss and Arky games that season were disappointing. Les kind of lost his team there at the end.
But to his credit, he got most of that fixed the next year. Still, the Ole Miss game in '09, was more than disappointing.
Arky has had some good teams the last few years, specifically last year and this year with Mallett, still we probably should have beat them in '07. But they did have some athletes in McFadden and Felix Jones that year.
My point is, looking at this what's your major beef with Miles resume'? And don't say "the way he wins" or "take away the lucky wins on the margin" - I've been through that.
Remember, over the long haul - "They are what their record says they are"!
Posted on 11/29/10 at 4:02 pm to LSUnKaty
Look im not saying fire LM but i dont think anyone is happy with the product that is put on the field, yes we find ways to win but we live on the edge and it always will bite us 2 to 4 times a year. We play to the level of our opponent
Posted on 11/29/10 at 4:05 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
Actually, its the exact opposite.
Some coaches are blamed, sure.
Take last night's Colts/Chargers, for instance.
Collinsworth could not stop talking about how pathetic Manning's offensive line played and how it "gave him no chance to win." They got smacked around about like LSU's did against Auburn and Arkansas. But the general consensus then was that "Stud failed. Miles failed. Crowton failed."
Never once did I hear them mention that Jim Caldwell/Moore/Manning had a shitty gameplan (and they did).
Posted on 11/29/10 at 4:06 pm to biglego
quote:
We dont really want to come down hard on the players. Easier to attack the coaches. This does not apply to QBs though.
Right, and I understand the sentiment. But at some point things are outside of a coaches control. It's reached a point to our fans where every win is "because of the players, despite Miles" and every loss is "because of Miles, despite the players."
That's some really poor reasoning/logic/thought processes.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 4:07 pm to OBUDan
quote:
I'm never exactly sure what "process" means. I haven't read this whole thread, but judging by your OP it seems your definition of "process" is winning margin. Others define it as "looking good."
Process has nothing to do with "looking good". It has to do with fundamentals and preparation. It has to do with wargaming end-of-game scenarios so you don't do stupid shite in a panic.
It has nothing to do with any of the other stuff you typed out.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 4:07 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:
You first have to subtract out all the creampuff games that even a deaf, dumb and blind person like Curley Hallman would go undefeated against.
You mean games like when LSU loss to UAB or when Bama loss to ULM or when Michigan loss to ASU or Old Miss to Jasksonville St.
Those the "creampuff games that even a deaf, dumb and blind" coaches would never lose???
Posted on 11/29/10 at 4:13 pm to LSUnKaty
quote:
No creampuffs on this list just SEC schools - 68% winning record. As a frame of reference over its total history LSU has a 64% winning rate against all opponents (creampuffs included). The winningest program in the SEC, Alabama, has a .695 all time win percentage.
From the list above, it looks to me like we beat the teams we are supposed to beat for the most part.
Kentucky got us once. They had a pretty good team in '07. They beat Florida St. in the Music City Bowl to finish 8-5 that year, but still no excuse. We should have won that one in my opinion.
Tenn got us once Miles first year in that epic come back game. No excuse for that either really, even though the team was dealing with the Katrina aftermath and had to reschedule some early games etc.
UGA gave us a beat down in the SECCG Miles first year I think, but if I remember right our starting QB got hurt in that game.
Besides the obvious powerhouses FL, AU, and Bama, that leaves Ole Miss and Arky with wins over us.
What can I say, the 2008 season was a debacle with the co-defensive coordinators and the loss of our 5-star QB and all the pick 6s - but the Ole Miss and Arky games that season were disappointing. Les kind of lost his team there at the end.
But to his credit, he got most of that fixed the next year. Still, the Ole Miss game in '09, was more than disappointing.
Arky has had some good teams the last few years, specifically last year and this year with Mallett, still we probably should have beat them in '07. But they did have some athletes in McFadden and Felix Jones that year.
Thank you for actually going to the tape.
I don't agree with all of your analysis, but I appreciate the effort. quote:
My point is, looking at this what's your major beef with Miles resume'? And don't say "the way he wins" or "take away the lucky wins on the margin" - I've been through that.
My beef is he severely underperforms given the level of talent he fields. Just look at the Arky game from Saturday. Seriously, how could the play at the end of the 1st half happened to anyone other than LSU? You see that play every week - 3 guys rush and there are 8 dbs, 4 of whom start 50 yards behind the play. The reason teams never even attempt that play is because the defense is back, I think Arkansas kneels if not for the absurd defense.
But you still seem to be missing the point. But for some major luck, Miles would have lost maybe 5 more of those games (UT this year being a prime example). AT THE MARGIN, a more accurate representation of what he is bringing to the table has been obscured by some absurdly lucky bounces (think UF this year).
Posted on 11/29/10 at 4:13 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:
Process has nothing to do with "looking good". It has to do with fundamentals and preparation. It has to do with wargaming end-of-game scenarios so you don't do stupid shite in a panic.
It has nothing to do with any of the other stuff you typed out.
Okay, well lay out for me a coach who has excellent "process."
I'm asking this legitimately. I've watched just about every coach in America bungle high-pressure, no time scenarios, so I'm just trying to figure out which ones I'm missing.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 4:15 pm to OBUDan
quote:
Okay, well lay out for me a coach who has excellent "process."
Nick Saban would be a very good example. And I have never seen him madly calling for a timeout when he didn't need one.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 4:15 pm to OBUDan
quote:Well said.
It's reached a point to our fans where every win is "because of the players, despite Miles" and every loss is "because of Miles, despite the players."
Posted on 11/29/10 at 4:16 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:I'd rather have a bad coach and go undefeated than a good coach and lose four games. That's like saying I'd rather have a good golf swing and shoot 100 than have a horrendous golf swing and shoot a 59. I'd rather have a good coach and an undefeated season, but if I'm forced to pick between the two, give me the wins.
but would you really argue that the coach was good?
Posted on 11/29/10 at 4:17 pm to OBUDan
quote:
Right, and I understand the sentiment. But at some point things are outside of a coaches control. It's reached a point to our fans where every win is "because of the players, despite Miles" and every loss is "because of Miles, despite the players."
Truth.
I guess it comes down to the overall sloppy play and, again, margin of victory. LSU never seems to be in control of a game, and even when they are, the scoreboard doesnt reflect it. And I really don't see that type of play from the other power teams. We consider LSU to be on par with the big dogs in the country. And those teams, in their good years, look the part. LSU never looks like an oiled machine. Even in 2007 LSU struggled to win most games, in a way that Bama and Florida did not in 2009 and 2008. I guess thats our measuring stick.
Its probably a good combination of player mistakes and coaching, but its just easier to stick it on the coaches.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 4:21 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:
Nick Saban would be a very good example. And I have never seen him madly calling for a timeout when he didn't need one.
Ahh, so now we get back to it.
Isn't this really the heart of the matter... that Miles isn't Nick Saban?
Well, I've never seen Miles call a preposterously stupid fake punt inside his own 20 in the first 3 minutes of a game.
Or a fake punt where he snaps to the upback (Bradie James) on 4th and 16...
I guess those things have nothing to do with the process though?
Were we lucky in '04 when Alexis Serna missed not one, not two, but three extra points so that we could beat an over matched Oregon State team?
Was Saban lucky last year when it took two blocked field goals to be a shitty Tennessee team to preserve his undefeated season?
What's the dedication to "Margin" on those games?
Posted on 11/29/10 at 4:21 pm to Lou
quote:
I'd rather have a bad coach and go undefeated than a good coach and lose four games. That's like saying I'd rather have a good golf swing and shoot 100 than have a horrendous golf swing and shoot a 59. I'd rather have a good coach and an undefeated season, but if I'm forced to pick between the two, give me the wins.
This is just such sloppy and illogical thinking. Of course anyone would rather get lucky in one year and win everything. But you hire a coach for repeatable results. Your 2 losses this year very easily could have been 5 (and there were no games that could have bounced LSU's way just via luck).
Posted on 11/29/10 at 4:22 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:
It has to do with fundamentals and preparation.
Right....like how Bama was fundamentally sound on that 75yd strike we dropped on them and how well prepared they were for the fake punt, huh.
Or maybe you mean how well prepared and sound LSU was for the last play of the 04 bowl game.
All that stuff is great but it doesn't take into account the great equalizer in sports and that being....sometimes chit just happens.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 4:24 pm to OBUDan
quote:
Ahh, so now we get back to it.
Isn't this really the heart of the matter... that Miles isn't Nick Saban?
He certainly isn't Nick Saban. But the hear of the matter is that he is Les Miles.
quote:
Well, I've never seen Miles call a preposterously stupid fake punt inside his own 20 in the first 3 minutes of a game.
Or a fake punt where he snaps to the upback (Bradie James) on 4th and 16...
I guess those things have nothing to do with the process though?
I don't remember those, but with more details I'm happy to discuss.
quote:
Were we lucky in '04 when Alexis Serna missed not one, not two, but three extra points so that we could beat an over matched Oregon State team?
Sure. But if you recall the field was a horrible mess of slop and a very green JR had to come in for MR.
quote:
Was Saban lucky last year when it took two blocked field goals to be a shitty Tennessee team to preserve his undefeated season?
Sure he was.
quote:
What's the dedication to "Margin" on those games?
Bama probably still should have been in the title game anyway with a loss, but it was certainly very lucky for them that they didn't have to find out.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 4:26 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:
That is an execution mistake. Not the same thing.
quote:
You simply can't come up with a single thing that Saban or any other elite coach has done that was as stupid as not knowing the rules of the game.
uhh, i can't argue with ignorance. not knowing how many people you need to send on the field is not an execution thing. it's a mental/coaching thing. you don't want to see anything saban does wrong. faking a punt on your own 20 in the s.e.c. champ. and n.c. champ. game isn't smart. saban did it, it didn't work and gave the other team an advantage. sitting on a 24 point lead with the number 1 team in america, isn't smart. it didn't work.
i can come up with a lot of decisions he has made that i didn't care for. i believe he's a fabulous coach. i'm just pointing out he isn't perfect. he did lose to u.a.b, he did lose to u.l.m, utah, ect. i'm sure he did some things not so smart in those games as well.
bill b. is one of if not the best coach in football. he did a stupid thing last year going for it on fourth down with 2 minutes left on his own 20 against indy.
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