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Message
help diagnosing electrical problem and possible solution
Posted on 11/5/24 at 4:22 pm
Posted on 11/5/24 at 4:22 pm
Just to give yall a heads up, the breaker is off for this room. I will list these as switches LEFT, MIDDLE, RIGHT.
This is to our back room that holds all our lawn/outdoor equipment/power tools/etc. RIGHT switch is the only switch that actively works and is used to power the light fixture in the ceiling. I had never figured out what LEFT and MIDDLE switches were to. The only guess I could come up with is to our two motion sensor flood lights that have clearly damaged/defective motion sensors. They worked years ago on their own and have not worked since then. I went ahead and decided to replace all our home switches with rocker switches and this is one of the last to figure out. Here's what it looked look when I pulled the plate back (I replaced a wire nut with the wire clip because I assumed the nut was not securing the connections):
There are two sets of wires coming to the box. The RIGHT switch is connected to one set, and the LEFT and MIDDLE are connected in a weird way to their own. There is a hot wire going to the LEFT switch with another wire jumping to the MIDDLE switch. The red cable goes to the LEFT switch and the neutral wire goes to the MIDDLE switch. I have no idea what is going on here, but when I test to see if there's any voltage with my non-contact tester, I am only getting any sort of voltage from the right wires. Nothing is coming from any of the wires on the left set.
My question:
If my LEFT and MIDDLE switches power my flood lights, what would I need to do in order to power those switches safely? And what would I have to do about wiring the red and white wires. The only time I've seen a red wire is on one of our three way switches in the home and I'm still trying to figure out that problem later.
This is to our back room that holds all our lawn/outdoor equipment/power tools/etc. RIGHT switch is the only switch that actively works and is used to power the light fixture in the ceiling. I had never figured out what LEFT and MIDDLE switches were to. The only guess I could come up with is to our two motion sensor flood lights that have clearly damaged/defective motion sensors. They worked years ago on their own and have not worked since then. I went ahead and decided to replace all our home switches with rocker switches and this is one of the last to figure out. Here's what it looked look when I pulled the plate back (I replaced a wire nut with the wire clip because I assumed the nut was not securing the connections):
There are two sets of wires coming to the box. The RIGHT switch is connected to one set, and the LEFT and MIDDLE are connected in a weird way to their own. There is a hot wire going to the LEFT switch with another wire jumping to the MIDDLE switch. The red cable goes to the LEFT switch and the neutral wire goes to the MIDDLE switch. I have no idea what is going on here, but when I test to see if there's any voltage with my non-contact tester, I am only getting any sort of voltage from the right wires. Nothing is coming from any of the wires on the left set.
My question:
If my LEFT and MIDDLE switches power my flood lights, what would I need to do in order to power those switches safely? And what would I have to do about wiring the red and white wires. The only time I've seen a red wire is on one of our three way switches in the home and I'm still trying to figure out that problem later.
6
Posted on 11/5/24 at 5:17 pm to BilbeauTBaggins
You need to get a voltmeter. The only thing those testers are good for is quickly seeing if something is hot for safety reasons. For this you need a volt meter.
You probably have a bad switch somewhere, your red wire is probably to the 3 way switch as you said. But improperly wired and with the wrong type of switch a 3 way switch will not work properly.
Get a volt meter (or hell your tester is ok I guess) and turn the switches on and off and then test your outside lights to see if that works them.
Switches also go bad, so it could be hot going to the switch but no power going out/ through.
I'm not an electrician, but you have a ground there it may help to ground them to the ground in the box.
You probably have a bad switch somewhere, your red wire is probably to the 3 way switch as you said. But improperly wired and with the wrong type of switch a 3 way switch will not work properly.
Get a volt meter (or hell your tester is ok I guess) and turn the switches on and off and then test your outside lights to see if that works them.
Switches also go bad, so it could be hot going to the switch but no power going out/ through.
I'm not an electrician, but you have a ground there it may help to ground them to the ground in the box.
Posted on 11/5/24 at 6:30 pm to BilbeauTBaggins
It’s a bit hard to tell, I he Romex on the right looks like it has 2 blacks and a white? One appears to be going to the wire nut, that then connects the middle and left switches, while the other appears to be to the other Romex cable, meaning this was all one Romex cable. But I don’t understand why one side has 2 black hots while the other one has a black and red hot. Is there another coating hiding the red on the right side?
Does the one on the right have a hot connected? Looks like just a white, if it is working its likely functioning as a hot.
I can see the “on” letters on the left switch, so probably not functioning as a 3 leg. What about middle? If it can be controlled by 2 switched it usually doesn’t have on/off written as they can be reversed.
To me, it looks like middle is feeding hot to the left, and the red is controlling a light as a “traveler”. Which would mean that the middle needs to be flipped on for left to be on.
But as the other poster said, first step is to see which one is actually receiving power with a volt meter.
Does the one on the right have a hot connected? Looks like just a white, if it is working its likely functioning as a hot.
I can see the “on” letters on the left switch, so probably not functioning as a 3 leg. What about middle? If it can be controlled by 2 switched it usually doesn’t have on/off written as they can be reversed.
To me, it looks like middle is feeding hot to the left, and the red is controlling a light as a “traveler”. Which would mean that the middle needs to be flipped on for left to be on.
But as the other poster said, first step is to see which one is actually receiving power with a volt meter.
Posted on 11/5/24 at 7:25 pm to OceanMan
Only the RIGHT is showing any voltage/receiving power. The wire nut is connecting three things:
LEFT hot wire
MIDDLE hot wire
Hot wire from Romex coming out of the left side
Nothing on the right side is attached to anything on the middle or left
LEFT hot wire
MIDDLE hot wire
Hot wire from Romex coming out of the left side
Nothing on the right side is attached to anything on the middle or left
This post was edited on 11/5/24 at 7:26 pm
Posted on 11/5/24 at 9:18 pm to BilbeauTBaggins
Need to get a wire tracer, like one of these: Klein
And figure our for sure what fixtures those other wires are going to. Make sure the circuit breaker is off as these types of toner tracers don't work on live circuits. I have an Ideal SureTrace kit for live and non-live wires, awesome kit but probably not something you want to spend $1000+ for but I have that Klein kit too and it works well enough.
And figure our for sure what fixtures those other wires are going to. Make sure the circuit breaker is off as these types of toner tracers don't work on live circuits. I have an Ideal SureTrace kit for live and non-live wires, awesome kit but probably not something you want to spend $1000+ for but I have that Klein kit too and it works well enough.
Posted on 11/5/24 at 10:23 pm to Clames
I think when I have the time I'm going to see if there are any Romex cables attached to these flood flights. It's always been a guess. I just don't know where else they would go.
Posted on 11/6/24 at 12:12 am to BilbeauTBaggins
That's the advantage of using a tracer, it can lead you along the path of the wiring. Probably one of the most useful electrical troubleshooting tools I have.
Posted on 11/6/24 at 9:55 am to BilbeauTBaggins
quote:
LEFT hot wire MIDDLE hot wire Hot wire from Romex coming out of the left side
I think I can see it now. The hot on the right is underneath the white, so that is all connected and isolated. The pic made it look like the left hit was coming out the white Romex.
You would expect the hot on the left to be indeed be hot. I think you need to trace this back to the panel. It’s certainly possible the switches aren’t on the same circuit (the left and middle not on same circuit as the right). But that setup does look like it would be controlling nearby lights or a light/fan pair. It looks like 14-3 wire, so should be able to locate it in the attic or panel. Pretty sure the yellow is typically for wet area too, so that should help isolate it. Perhaps there is a tripped GFI upstream?
Posted on 11/6/24 at 10:18 am to OceanMan
It looks like there's only one live circuit coming into that box, that hot is pigtailed to the other switches. The white and red wires are switched hot (the white wire in the switch needs to marked with tape to show that it isn't a neutral). Yellow romex is 12AWG conductors, white is 14AWG, and gray is outdoor/direct burial.
Posted on 11/6/24 at 10:19 am to OceanMan
So this backroom has the breaker inside along with water heater. Only accessible through one door in the back of the house. Single story room and the rest of the house is two stories. I can't think of a scenario where this switch would trigger anything other than outlets currently in the room. I'll use my receptacle tester to see if maybe one of those are controller by the switch.
Posted on 11/6/24 at 10:44 am to BilbeauTBaggins
2 Wire - Hook 'em up.
3 Wire - Smoke 'em up.
4 Wire - Drag 'em up.
How many terminals does the middle switch have? 2,3 or 4 (not counting the bond terminal)?
Do either the Left or Middle Switch have "off" and "on" stamped on the switch?
3 Wire - Smoke 'em up.
4 Wire - Drag 'em up.
How many terminals does the middle switch have? 2,3 or 4 (not counting the bond terminal)?
Do either the Left or Middle Switch have "off" and "on" stamped on the switch?
Posted on 11/6/24 at 12:11 pm to Clames
quote:
It looks like there's only one live circuit coming into that box, that hot is pigtailed to the other switches.
It seems like he clarified that the right switch is hooked up to the Romex on the right. You just can’t see the hot, but hooked up to the switch, not connected in the pigtail. Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you are saying, but I think you are seeing the same as I originally thought I saw (all 3 switches using the same hot).
But yes I agree, it looks like red and or white may very well be being used as a hot and needs to be marked as such.
quote:
Yellow romex is 12AWG conductors, white is 14AWG
Good point. Yellow likely going to a 20amp breaker. Also more likely to have GFI in the circuit. If the hots on the left aren’t charged, it could be a GFI in the circuit is tripped. Outdoor outlet maybe?
Yellow typically is used for kitchens and bathrooms that may require higher loads.
It’s also possible that maybe the red and white are essentially controlling the same thing and both need to be switched on.
Posted on 11/6/24 at 12:18 pm to OceanMan
I double checked and none of the GFCI outlets are being affected, outdoor and indoor.
I also noticed that the room itself is not entirely cut off from power. It's just that gang box. I'm going to buy some new flood lights and see if maybe they were just old/worn out that is causing issues, but I still can't explain why I'm not getting any voltage.
I also noticed that the room itself is not entirely cut off from power. It's just that gang box. I'm going to buy some new flood lights and see if maybe they were just old/worn out that is causing issues, but I still can't explain why I'm not getting any voltage.
Posted on 11/6/24 at 12:21 pm to AwgustaDawg
There is a black wire coming from the left Romex, and the wire clip is connected to that, and both the LEFT and MIDDLE switches. RIGHT switch is connected solely to the right Romex.
LEFT switch
MIDDLE switch
Nothing makes sense with this.
LEFT switch
MIDDLE switch
Nothing makes sense with this.
This post was edited on 11/6/24 at 12:22 pm
Posted on 11/6/24 at 12:26 pm to BilbeauTBaggins
quote:
I can't think of a scenario where this switch would trigger anything other than outlets currently in the room. I'll use my receptacle tester to see if maybe one of those are controller by the switch.
What I’m saying is that if the Romex on the left (hooked up to the middle and left switches) is not showing voltage, it is not receiving power, so the switch won’t turn anything on or off, because it doesn’t have power going to it. So you need to see if it is actually going back to the breaker. I’m suggesting that there may be a seldomly used GFI outlet that has tripped and stopped the circuit. Just a thought. Again, the panel may not have a lot of 20 amp breakers, so that may help with ID. Those old floodlights, bull them down and see if one has a red instead of a white, that could give you a hint where these are going.
Posted on 11/6/24 at 12:50 pm to BilbeauTBaggins
quote:
There is a black wire coming from the left Romex, and the wire clip is connected to that, and both the LEFT and MIDDLE switches. RIGHT switch is connected solely to the right Romex.
LEFT switch
MIDDLE switch
Nothing makes sense with this.
I apologize - I can't see pictures at work.
It sounds like you have a hot coming in and feeding 2 switches (the black wire coming from the left romex feeding the left and middle switches). The right switch sounds like it is a separate hot, most likely a separate circuit. The black wire from it should be attached to one terminal on the switch and the other terminal would be the load, if there is one....may not be. If there is no wire connected to it or only one there is no load connected to it. The left and middle switch should have a wire not colored black attached to a terminal which does not have a black wire connected. If it is a red and and a black and they are both in the same piece of romex it is a piece of 3 wire feeding two separate loads. If it is a white connected to the switch that may be the same thing....especially if for some reason there is a red, white and black from the same piece of romex attached to each of the 3 switches...they would be switch leg returns feeding 3 separate loads on what is probably 2 separate circuits....not normal but perfectly fine....other than one of those loads is going to have 2 white wires, one hot and one a neutral, feeding it, and that is not exactly right but will work.
Posted on 11/6/24 at 2:25 pm to BilbeauTBaggins
quote:
I'm going to buy some new flood lights and see if maybe they were just old/worn out that is causing issues, but I still can't explain why I'm not getting any voltage.
I would definitely try to figure out why it isn't energized.
FYI I had a very similar situation in our garage...turns out the romex was not attached to anything in the attic getting back to the panel. But the wires were used to power the garage light and outdoor lights. I had to put a junction box in the attic.
Maybe at one time the hot from the right was tied to the ones on the left? If the nut was bigger and loose, and you didn't think the old nut was securing them there may have been three in there at one point.
It does look at though that red wire is hooked up to the neutral terminal on the switch and being used for that purpose. Take down those outdoor lights and maybe you might get a clue. But the three wire is for specific applications, if you have attic access, tracing it would be helpful
Posted on 11/6/24 at 2:25 pm to AwgustaDawg
So the left is 14/3 and right is 14/2. I was also able to pull down the light fixtures and found there is no power going to either them.
Whoever wired this house is a moron.
Whoever wired this house is a moron.
Posted on 11/6/24 at 3:09 pm to BilbeauTBaggins
quote:
So the left is 14/3 and right is 14/2. I was also able to pull down the light fixtures and found there is no power going to either them.
Whoever wired this house is a moron.
LOL they tend to be.....
Posted on 11/6/24 at 3:16 pm to BilbeauTBaggins
why is there a wad or grass and pine needles behind that lamp holder?
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