re: Martin Slumbers head of R&A is not a LIV fan

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They want 72 hole tournaments

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You should at least get the facts right.

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blasting music on the course?

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Never been to a PGA Tour event I see.

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But I’m against the Saudis coming in with a bag of cash and trying to buy and change the game of golf.

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That's well and good, and I'm fine with it, but that can't be the reason to deny professional golfers playing in professional golf tournaments world ranking points.

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That’s all well and good but they can do whatever they want.

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That's factually inaccurate.

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They are a private organization and there are material differences in the game being played

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A match play event gets points, a 17 man field gets points, multiple 60ish man fields get points, a tournament where the someone starts 10 strokes ahead of another player gets points, 54 hole events get points, no cut events get points. Shall I continue?

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But maybe it would be easier for you to tell us why they can’t change the rules of what events qualify for points.

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They can, but what does that have to do with anything?

At current there are events that don't meet the stated standards still awarded points. So LIV not meeting the standards is not sufficient reason to deny them points.

You're making no sense

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They can, but what does that have to do with anything?

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They don’t like LIV… fact
They have the power to change the rules to make things harder for LIV… fact

Do I have to hold your hand here to help you figure this out? If you think they are going to stop at talking bad about LIV in press conferences you are very naive

Chamblee today said golf is “facing its biggest existential threat ever”. He’s absolutely hyperbolic, but understand he is just a mouthpiece. You can tell what the powers that be are thinking by the way he talks.

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we both know whatever I say you will take the opposing viewpoint.

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That's not true, you just said something that was wrong. I didn't make you do that

I’ll make a bit of a prediction, but one I am becoming comfortable with: judging by everything I’ve heard, read, some experience with anti-trust law (though admittedly not in sports), etc., I’d guess that LIV isn’t going to receive OWGR points this year and going into most of next year and won’t get an injunction to prevent that. There’s a whole slew of criteria they won’t meet even beyond being solely 54 hole no cut events until next year at the earliest and most likely not until 2024 just given how these things work (requiring a developmental tour, generally being tied into the global golf ecosystem, etc.). They aren’t going to fix that stuff overnight, and the preponderance of criteria will likely prevent an injunction in the meantime. I think the USGA and R&A have pretty clearly telegraphed where they stand, and from what I’ve heard, ANGC is aligned with them (no idea where the PGA of America stands).

With that said, most everyone in LIV with a few exceptions is going to start plummeting down the OWGR here pretty soon. If they don’t get OWGR points and the majors don’t change their criteria, then nearly everyone without existing exemptions will be locked out of the majors next year and will have to qualify for the Opens. They have to start getting OWGR points or the majors have to change their criteria by spring of next year at the latest. Neither seems particularly likely in the current environment, but…

That leaves LIV with one obvious strategic option: hyper-aggressive asset acquisition after the FedEx playoffs are over - far more aggressive than they’ve been to date. That means converting Hideki on the rumored near-half billion dollar offer just as a start, getting half or more of the final FedEx 30, players with real capability to be consistent top 5 in the world over the next 5 or 10 years, etc. Not guys whose best days are clearly behind them (most of them) or who look like they’ll be battling chronic injury problems for the latter half of their careers (Brooks, Bryson) or who seem to be more interested in off course endeavors (Ancer). And they need to do that right now, as in this fall. If they don’t get a critical mass of elite talent soon, then the league would likely become a vortex. I have a hard time envisioning the structure waiting out the FTC or DoJ for years on end while it’s hung up in court with no recourse to entry into major championship fields. LIV needs to act quickly - far more quickly with a far better player set than has been to date.

You could start by reading this LINK

LIV doesn’t meet a few criteria currently, and they can restrict anyone from the rankings for any reason. It doesn’t really matter what you think is fair.

You keep trying to convince us but it’s really not up for debate.

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Im not disagreeing with anything you said, and your post is insightful. Can you walk me through the above, specifically regarding the fact there are already events not meeting the criteria? Not granting them an injunction were they consistently applying their own criteria would make sense, but they aren't. There are events being awarded points that don't meet almost every criteria they have in place, with some not meeting multiple.

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Those events (Match Play, WGC’s, Tour Championship, etc.) are already tied into the existing ecosystem. That’s likely a most key differentiator; they are an extension of an existing competitive infrastructure. There’s also the fact that LIV meets virtually none of the existing criteria whereas the others (sans the Hero, which I agree is ridiculous) typically only fall short one or two criteria AND they are tied into the ecosystem.

I kind of alluded to it, but if LIV were to for real tie into the Asian Tour, I suspect their case would be stronger. Relegation and promotion, a (very rich) bolt on piece to an existing ecosystem, and so on. That’s why I don’t think this could be done right away - that kind of dramatic rearrangement with sponsors, venues, etc. takes a while.

What it really boils down to is if the seven don’t want LIV, then they have to fight in court. The FTC and DoJ are not fast organizations when it comes to anti-trust litigation. Ergo, LIV needs to seize the strategic and economic initiative right now and not rely on the courts. The courts will be too late.

Also, as a bit of an aside, I have worked with Middle Eastern sovereign wealth funds as an LP in alternative assets. They absolutely, 1000% will expect an economic return at some point (probably 5 - 7 years like most PE funds). That seems to be a consistent misunderstanding amongst both pro- and anti-LIV people: that they are an irrational actor willing to burn money purely to sportswash. Reputation laundering is a component, but they absolutely adhere to an internal IRR. You don’t grow the PIF like they do without being a disciplined investor.

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The FTC and DoJ are not fast organizations when it comes to anti-trust litigation. Ergo, LIV needs to seize the strategic and economic initiative right now and not rely on the courts. The courts will be too late.

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I agree, I just have a hard time understanding why they would grant the injunction as LIV can present examples of similar events getting ranking points, but I'll certainly defer you on that. But they definitely need to strike when the iron is hot, and from what I've heard, that's the plan after the Fedex Cup payouts.

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Also, as a bit of an aside, I have worked with Middle Eastern sovereign wealth funds as an LP in alternative assets. They absolutely, 1000% will expect an economic return at some point (probably 5 - 7 years like most PE funds). That seems to be a consistent misunderstanding amongst both pro- and anti-LIV people: that they are an irrational actor willing to burn money purely to sportswash. Reputation laundering is a component, but they absolutely adhere to an internal IRR. You don’t grow the PIF like they do without being a disciplined investor.

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I agree, they aren't going to let it be a sieve, but I don't know that they're looking to make a huge profit.

But if it doesn't get any kind of real revenue it will go away eventually