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re: Catholic bishops approve drafting of Communion document that could lead to rebuke of Biden

Posted on 6/24/21 at 10:05 pm to
Posted by Champagne
Already Conquered USA.
Member since Oct 2007
48678 posts
Posted on 6/24/21 at 10:05 pm to
quote:

2 Timothy 3:14-17 (16 being the central verse) teaches that scripture is sufficient without oral tradition.


Foo, that's not an accurate interpretation of that verse. Paul didn't tell the folks to go read the OT and be satisfied with that. The NT didn't exist yet when Paul said this. The OT was the only written Holy Scripture when Paul wrote here.

Even if there was one of the hand-written books of the Bible handy, Timothy or Paul wouldn't tell the folks "Everybody get one of these and rely only on this." The book would be written in Greek. Those folks spoke Aramaic and didn't read Greek. Most couldn't read at all. Why would Timothy or Paul tell people to rely only on the Written Holy Scripture when none of them had a book and none of them could read Greek? Many of them probably couldn't read at all.

You aren't making any logical or reasonable sense here, Foo. You aren't even accurate here.

The only Holy Scripture in existence at the time that Paul wrote this letter was the Old Testament. Paul never said that the Old Testament is all that's needed for salvation, Foo.
This post was edited on 6/24/21 at 10:11 pm
Posted by 62zip
One Particular Harbor
Member since Aug 2005
6353 posts
Posted on 6/24/21 at 10:10 pm to
quote:

Even if there was one of the hand-written books of the Bible handy, Timothy or Paul wouldn't tell the folks "Everybody get one of these and rely only on this." The book would be written in Greek. Those folks spoke Aramaic and didn't read Greek. Most couldn't read at all. Why would Timothy or Paul tell people to rely only on the Written Holy Scripture when none of them had a book and none of them could read Greek? Many of them probably couldn't read at all.


One of the reasons iconography is important.
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
41861 posts
Posted on 6/24/21 at 11:52 pm to
I'll address all of your individual posts in this one, rather than creating a separate post for each of yours, if you don't mind. I write too much as it is and would rather not post 5 when 1 will do.

quote:

Foo, that's not an accurate interpretation of that verse. Paul didn't tell the folks to go read the OT and be satisfied with that. The NT didn't exist yet when Paul said this. The OT was the only written Holy Scripture when Paul wrote here.
While you're correct that the New Testament wasn't completed when Paul wrote that statement, that wasn't the point of the interpretation that I gave. The point was the emphasis on scripture for providing all that was needed. At that time, Paul knew his own authority and Peter recognized that Paul's writings were authoritative, even going as far as to lump them in with the rest of scripture (2 Pet. 3:15-16). The point being that scripture (the revealed word of God) was what Paul was addressing as being useful for those purposes he listed and being sufficient for the man of God to be complete. That would include the Old Testament and the continuation of the revelation that he, himself, was partaking in, including his previous letter to Timothy.

quote:

Even if there was one of the hand-written books of the Bible handy, Timothy or Paul wouldn't tell the folks "Everybody get one of these and rely only on this." The book would be written in Greek. Those folks spoke Aramaic and didn't read Greek. Most couldn't read at all. Why would Timothy or Paul tell people to rely only on the Written Holy Scripture when none of them had a book and none of them could read Greek? Many of them probably couldn't read at all.

Do you suppose that Apostles did not preach the revealed word of God that was found later in the written Gospels as well as the epistles? Do you suppose that all were illiterate, even the recipients of his own written letters? Of course not. The intent of the epistles was to have them read aloud amongst the congregations. Those writings, being recognized as authoritative scriptures, would then be continued to read aloud, studied, and preached on, just as we do today.

quote:

You aren't making any logical or reasonable sense here, Foo. You aren't even accurate here.

The only Holy Scripture in existence at the time that Paul wrote this letter was the Old Testament. Paul never said that the Old Testament is all that's needed for salvation, Foo.
Please see above.

quote:

That verse [Acts 17:11] says that these folks heard Paul preach then read the Old Testament to check Paul's preaching. The Old Testament was the only Holy Scripture around then. There is no logical way to leap to the conclusion of Sola Scriptura from this passage, Foo. You aren't making any sense here.
I think you failed to see my point in my entire analysis. Scripture was the standard for that which was authoritative, beginning with the Old Testament (as the Bereans started with) and then expanding into the New Testament as those writings were codified. The bridge for the gap was the Apostles' teaching, which was later written down and preserved in what we call the New Testament scriptures. Paul frequently refers back to his "gospel" which was the gospel of Jesus Christ, which was written down in the four gospel texts and further explained by the epistles that were written. The "scriptures" are the revealed word of God, necessary for life and faith as Christians.

quote:

[1 Cor. 4:6] The phrase is "not to go beyond what is written" and from that sentence fragment, you spin the entire doctrine of sola scriptura? That doesn't make sense. Paul was referring to the Holy Scripture, which at the time he wrote, was the Old Testament. You think Paul was telling the folks that his letters were Holy Scripture?
Again, see above for the explanation of scripture (OT and NT). Paul knew his own authority from Christ to produce scripture and so did Peter, who included Paul's writings with scripture.

I wasn't attempting to prove Sola Scriptura from that one verse alone, but to show the doctrine is biblical (in response to the accusation that it wasn't) and how the human authors of scripture applied the principle in their writings.


quote:

[Mark 7:6-13]This doesn't make any sense at all. You think that this passage is an argument for sola scriptura? This passage is totally unrelated to our discussion.
Again, you missed my point. Sola Scriptura is about God's revealed word in scripture as the sole authority, even above tradition. Jesus condemned the Scribes and Pharisees for creating their own traditions that supplanted the revealed word of God as written down in the scriptures. That passage is entirely appropriate for what I'm defending. It's essentially the Old Testament equivalent of what the Reformers accused the RCC of doing.

quote:

Jesus wrote down nothing and everything he handed down to the Apostles was by word and deed.

You know darn well that the New Testament clearly states in more than one place that NOT everything that Jesus handed down to the Apostles by word and deed is in the Bible. The NT clearly states that. I read it myself, Foo.

If it's not all written down, then, how did Jesus intend for it to be learned by us? He left good men, the Apostles, to teach us by word and the deed, as they learned from the words and deeds of Jesus.
The reason why John 21:25 was included was not to prove the necessity of oral tradition but to demonstrate that even what was written as necessity for the message of the gospel recounting was just a fraction of what Jesus said and did. If the intent of saying that was to prove the necessity of oral tradition, how would one expect fallible men to be able to memorize and retell orally that which "that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written"? Of course they couldn't, and they weren't meant to. Not all of what Christ said and did was necessary to prove His message and mission.

quote:

There weren't enough written Bibles to go around for sola scriptura to be feasible, Foo, and most people couldn't read back then anyway.
Addressed above.

quote:

The most logical approach is that the Word of God is both Holy Scripture AND Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition is what Jesus Himself handed down to the Apostles by word and deed.
Jesus ordained the Apostles to the ministry of the gospel, going throughout the world and preaching for the sake of building the Church through the conversion of lost souls. The scriptures contain all that is needed for the faith and life of Christians, and the oral recounting of those things prior to their codification doesn't change that. Was the message of the cross something different before it was written down? Of course not. The Apostles preached that which God had revealed to them that was necessary for salvation and life in the organized Church and then wrote down that which was intended to be passed down beyond the Apostolic foundation.
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
41861 posts
Posted on 6/24/21 at 11:53 pm to
I was wrong: there wasn't enough character space to address all of your responses in one post, so it will have to spill into two. Apologies.

quote:

Once again, you focus on one phrase of one sentence, and from that sentence fragment, you claim that this proves Sola Scriptura. From one sentence fragment!

That makes no sense.

You took this sentence fragment from Irenaeus's essay called "Against Heresies". You've taken it out of the context of his entire essay. His essay was not addressing the debate over Sola Scriptura, so, it's hardly logical to lift a sentence fragment from the essay and proclaim it to be proof of Sola Scriptura.

I know from reading this and other early Church writers that their writings support the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theology, not the Protestant Reformer theology.
Perhaps you'd like to tell me what Irenaeus intended to convey with that passage? By the way, the reason why it is pertinent is that the church fathers used scripture, not tradition, as the primary means of dispelling heresies.

Also, I wasn't attempting to prove Sola Scriptura from one sentence fragment. I was attempting to show how even an early church father said that the scriptures are the foundation and pillar of the faith, which is what I was attempting to show by going through the scripture references.

quote:

I'm familiar with the Reformation. These men, the Reformers, "they believed they were going back" to what the Church really was. They believed?
Yes, they believed. Augustine's works, for instance, were frequently used to show that their beliefs were not novel. Luther, himself, did not nail his 95 theses to divide or destroy the Church but to call attention to the abuses that he believed to exist in an attempt to reform it. He didn't want to leave the RCC; he was forced out.

quote:

These men lead you down the wrong path, Foo.
I disagree that God has led me down the wrong path. I believe the Lord has opened my eyes to the truth of His word. I am focused on His divinely inspired word and trusting in His preserved revelation as my ultimate authority.

quote:

These men lead you to believe that Almighty God allowed his Children to be sent to Hell by a pagan-like cult called the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church, and He did so four about Fifteen Centuries. Then AFTER 1,500 years, Almighty God provided His Divine Truth to us through The Reformers.
You are mistaken. There has always been a remnant of Christ's true Church, even in the Old Testament when He sent Israel into exile for their unfaithfulness and idolatry. There were mini-reformations taking place throughout the history of the Church, and it was the 1500's that the culmination of apostasy occurred to the point that the reformers saw that enough was enough. Even Rome acknowledged the issues that led to the Reformation and attempted its own, internal reformation, often referred to as the Counter Reformation.

The point of the Reformation was to point the Church back to the word of God rather than the doctrines of men that perverted the gospel and abused Christ's flock over the centuries. It was intended to remove the corruption that crept in over the previous 1500 years and to point the people to their Savior, not to His supposed representative, for salvation.

quote:

And then many Protestant sects and off-shoots say that The Reformers were wrong, so we needed newer Protestant churches to get to the Truth, and this took even more Centuries.
Sin causes people to disagree about all sorts of things. I'd argue that while fragmentation is natural among sinners, it grew exponentially the further Protestants moved away from the Reformation and abandoned what made them Protestants in the first place. We see that no better than with the situations we find ourselves in today with un-Christian ideologies like Critical Race Theory being accepted by so many churches. The principles of the Reformation were abandoned long ago by many in the West.

quote:

This whole scheme that "they believed" and that they lead you to believe doesn't make any sense. It defies logic and reason.
I believe it is quite reasonable and logical to assert that the Church that Christ founded had been perverted by ever-increasing and ever-changing dogmas that were destroying souls and dishonoring Christ and so it was necessary to go back to the beginning.

quote:

They made a new religion, Foo. And then other men believed other things than what the Reformers believed and THEY in turn made other new religions.
I don't think you're using the world "religion" correctly here. Protestants are adherents to the Christian religion.

quote:

Today, how many Protestant denominations are there? Hundreds? Which once do you belong to, Foo? I'd like to learn more about what men have lead you to believe.
I have been led to believe what I believe through the study of the scriptures and by the affirmation of the Holy Spirit. I am part of Christ's flock and I hear His voice and I follow Him.

I am a member of a local body in the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America. You can read all about what we believe here.
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