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Message
re: Sorry about this - but I have never understood the 'witnesses' question.
Posted on 1/25/20 at 11:33 am to ChineseBandit58
Posted on 1/25/20 at 11:33 am to ChineseBandit58
Bandit, you must remember that this is NOT a judicial proceeding and that (while there are some analogies) it is NOT a criminal prosecution.
The arguments we have been hearing for three days and WILL be hearing for another three days are NOT “evidence.”. They are each side’s summaries of the hundreds of hours of testimony and thousands of pages of evidence already “admitted“ in the House.
There is an underlying assumption that each side will highlight that portion of the House record which best serves its own purposes. The Senators are presumed to have access to the entire record. Incidentally, reliance upon the House record is one reason that the unfair Dem practices in the House were so problematic.
The whole “witness” issue in the Senate thus has two branches.
The first ties to the Dems. They had every chance to call witnesses in the House, so it seems reasonable to limit them in the Senate to only witnesses or testimony which (for whatever reason) was not available to them during House proceedings.
The second ties to the GOP. Normally, they should be subject to the same standard, but the Dems basically precluded them from developing evidence in the House, so there is a decent argument that they should have greater leeway in the Senate.
Thus, two questions arise. First, do they even NEED witnesses? Davy addressed that question quite well. The second question is whether the less-zealous-for-Trump Senators are willing to hear from witnesses of questionable direct relevance.
In a real legal proceeding, the single question would be whether Trump had objective evidence of wrongdoing by the Bidens when he requested help from Ukraine, but of course this is not a legal proceeding. Set that aside for a moment.
If we use that standard, I think ALL GOP Senators would vote in favor of testimony from a new witness who had been suppressed by the Dems but who provided Trump a pre-Zelensky-call briefing about Biden wrongdoing. However the Bidens themselves have nothing to add on that point. Thus, there is a dispute among the GOP as whether to allow their testimony.
The arguments we have been hearing for three days and WILL be hearing for another three days are NOT “evidence.”. They are each side’s summaries of the hundreds of hours of testimony and thousands of pages of evidence already “admitted“ in the House.
There is an underlying assumption that each side will highlight that portion of the House record which best serves its own purposes. The Senators are presumed to have access to the entire record. Incidentally, reliance upon the House record is one reason that the unfair Dem practices in the House were so problematic.
The whole “witness” issue in the Senate thus has two branches.
The first ties to the Dems. They had every chance to call witnesses in the House, so it seems reasonable to limit them in the Senate to only witnesses or testimony which (for whatever reason) was not available to them during House proceedings.
The second ties to the GOP. Normally, they should be subject to the same standard, but the Dems basically precluded them from developing evidence in the House, so there is a decent argument that they should have greater leeway in the Senate.
Thus, two questions arise. First, do they even NEED witnesses? Davy addressed that question quite well. The second question is whether the less-zealous-for-Trump Senators are willing to hear from witnesses of questionable direct relevance.
In a real legal proceeding, the single question would be whether Trump had objective evidence of wrongdoing by the Bidens when he requested help from Ukraine, but of course this is not a legal proceeding. Set that aside for a moment.
If we use that standard, I think ALL GOP Senators would vote in favor of testimony from a new witness who had been suppressed by the Dems but who provided Trump a pre-Zelensky-call briefing about Biden wrongdoing. However the Bidens themselves have nothing to add on that point. Thus, there is a dispute among the GOP as whether to allow their testimony.
This post was edited on 1/25/20 at 11:47 am
2
Posted on 1/25/20 at 11:59 am to AggieHank86
Good write-up, Hank.
What the hell are we gonna do with ourselves after all this is over with!?
What the hell are we gonna do with ourselves after all this is over with!?
Posted on 1/25/20 at 12:03 pm to AggieHank86
FIRST - thank you very much for your response - you have given me exactly the type response I was begging for - have not even read it all yet - but regardless
THANK YOU =
Totally agree - which is why I am asking my questions based on FAIRNESS rather than LEGALITY - My basic assumption of good legal law is that it is based on FAIRNESS as best as the English language is able to define such a nebulous concept. Many legal processes result in unfair outcomes - and I can live with that as long as the circumstances are so isolated as to be considered 'that's life."
Since each house in an IMPEACHMENT is given 'sole power" to conduct its proceedings - and the HoR has interpreted that to mean they do not need to adhere to universally accepted concept of DUE PROCESS, that the SENATE should be able to insert their OWN version of FAIRNESS to try and undo the "due process" concept that everyone will individually agree is FAIR.
Completely agree.
You have encapsulated the gist of my question very aptly right there.
Here is where my question arises that I have been very inept at presenting.
I believe that BEFORE any question about "witnesses" should be taken (and by that I mean witness that add to the record already presented) the DEFENSE should be able to call witnesses the directly REBUT statements made in the articles of impeachment. WITHOUT a 'reciprocity-witness that adds to the indictment in unrelated area - or even to bolster the argument presented.
NOW - the prosecution should be allowed to REBUT that first 'rebuttal' but only relative to the issue raised by the defense - They should not be allowed to ADD to the prosecution case in this stage.
That process should await the conclusion of the DEFENSE rebuttal phase.
After a full-throated REBUTTAL from the defense - then then questioning by the senators - THEN and only then should consideration of ADDITIONAL witnessed be considered.
I am content with your analysis above - I want to emphasize that I am only interested in the phase we are in right now - an ability to call for the defense specific REBUTTAL witness to the case included in their written articles.
At this point - I think my question is moot - I raised it well before today.
I have now watched the Defense team UTTERLY DESTROY the entire IMPEACHMENT fiasco in only 2 short hours.
Further discussion is now just theoretical on my part -
THANK YOU AGAIN for a thorough answer to my question - much better than I deserved.
THANK YOU =
quote:
his is NOT a judicial proceeding and that (while there are some analogies) it is NOT a criminal prosecution.
Totally agree - which is why I am asking my questions based on FAIRNESS rather than LEGALITY - My basic assumption of good legal law is that it is based on FAIRNESS as best as the English language is able to define such a nebulous concept. Many legal processes result in unfair outcomes - and I can live with that as long as the circumstances are so isolated as to be considered 'that's life."
Since each house in an IMPEACHMENT is given 'sole power" to conduct its proceedings - and the HoR has interpreted that to mean they do not need to adhere to universally accepted concept of DUE PROCESS, that the SENATE should be able to insert their OWN version of FAIRNESS to try and undo the "due process" concept that everyone will individually agree is FAIR.
quote:
The arguments we have been hearing for three days and WILL be hearing for another three days are NOT “evidence.”. They are each side’s summaries of the hundreds of hours of testimony and thousands of pages of evidence already “admitted“ in the House.
Completely agree.
quote:
The whole “witness” issue in the Senate thus has two branches.
The first ties to the Dems. They had every chance to call witnesses in the House, so it seems reasonable to limit them in the Senate to only witnesses or testimony which (for whatever reason) available to them during House proceedings.
The second ties to the GOP. Normally, they should be subject to the same standard, but the Dems basically precluded them from developing evidence in the House, so there is a decent argument that they should have greater leeway in the Senate.
You have encapsulated the gist of my question very aptly right there.
quote:
Thus, two questions arise. First, do they even NEED witnesses? Davy addressed that question quite well.
Here is where my question arises that I have been very inept at presenting.
I believe that BEFORE any question about "witnesses" should be taken (and by that I mean witness that add to the record already presented) the DEFENSE should be able to call witnesses the directly REBUT statements made in the articles of impeachment. WITHOUT a 'reciprocity-witness that adds to the indictment in unrelated area - or even to bolster the argument presented.
NOW - the prosecution should be allowed to REBUT that first 'rebuttal' but only relative to the issue raised by the defense - They should not be allowed to ADD to the prosecution case in this stage.
quote:
The second question is whether the less-zealous-for-Trump Senators are willing to hear from witnesses of questionable direct relevance.
That process should await the conclusion of the DEFENSE rebuttal phase.
After a full-throated REBUTTAL from the defense - then then questioning by the senators - THEN and only then should consideration of ADDITIONAL witnessed be considered.
quote:
In a real legal proceeding, the single question would be whether Trump had objective evidence of wrongdoing by the Bidens when he requested help from Ukraine, but of course this is not a legal proceeding. Set that aside for a moment.
If we use that standard, I think ALL GOP Senators would vote in favor of testimony from a new witness who had been suppressed by the Dems but who provided Trump a pre-Zelensky-call briefing about Biden wrongdoing. However the Bidens themselves have nothing to add on that point. Thus, there is a dispute among the GOP as whether to allow their testimony.
I am content with your analysis above - I want to emphasize that I am only interested in the phase we are in right now - an ability to call for the defense specific REBUTTAL witness to the case included in their written articles.
At this point - I think my question is moot - I raised it well before today.
I have now watched the Defense team UTTERLY DESTROY the entire IMPEACHMENT fiasco in only 2 short hours.
Further discussion is now just theoretical on my part -
THANK YOU AGAIN for a thorough answer to my question - much better than I deserved.
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