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Why Did The Western Die as a Genre?
Posted on 4/1/17 at 6:20 pm
Posted on 4/1/17 at 6:20 pm
The genre as a whole had so many great themes and made for such compelling storytelling.
Just take Logan... It's essentially a western in the vein of Josie Wales, Unforgiving, an obviously Shane, but why do actual old time westerns mostly fail commercially now?
Just take Logan... It's essentially a western in the vein of Josie Wales, Unforgiving, an obviously Shane, but why do actual old time westerns mostly fail commercially now?
This post was edited on 4/1/17 at 6:21 pm
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Posted on 4/1/17 at 6:23 pm to Jack Ruby
It hasn't died as a genre.. see the Hateful 8, Django Unchained, True Grit remake, 310 to Yuma etc. It's popularity has just dimmed in recent decades and replaced by other genre's for the moment. It will be around again.
ETA: It is too enduring of an American genre to die away. It will re-invented, updated, and made fresh for current tastes. See Cowboys and Aliens, Westworld, etc.
ETA: It is too enduring of an American genre to die away. It will re-invented, updated, and made fresh for current tastes. See Cowboys and Aliens, Westworld, etc.
This post was edited on 4/1/17 at 6:44 pm
Posted on 4/1/17 at 6:41 pm to Jack Ruby
Because, by today's standards, it won't sell unless it has super heroes or is based on a comic book.
Posted on 4/1/17 at 6:44 pm to Jack Ruby
The advancement in travel and film technology meant that studios no longer had to rely on affordable, locally shot, Westerns as their go-to fantasy/historical genre.
Changes in social norms made the slaughter of Native Americans less attractive as a film backdrop.
The White Hats vs Black Hats good vs evil no longer played in a society that was exploring every shade of grey.
Changes in social norms made the slaughter of Native Americans less attractive as a film backdrop.
The White Hats vs Black Hats good vs evil no longer played in a society that was exploring every shade of grey.
Posted on 4/1/17 at 6:45 pm to dawgdayafternoon
They tried to make Magnificent Seven remake as comic-booky as possible and it still barely broke even.
People say Unforgiven killed the Western...but there were good ones after that...Open Range, etc.
I think Hollywood mostly just focusing on the 12-16 year old demographic killed the Western.
People say Unforgiven killed the Western...but there were good ones after that...Open Range, etc.
I think Hollywood mostly just focusing on the 12-16 year old demographic killed the Western.
This post was edited on 4/1/17 at 6:45 pm
Posted on 4/1/17 at 6:46 pm to dawgdayafternoon
quote:
Because, by today's standards, it won't sell unless it has super heroes or is based on a comic book.
Because the theaters are constantly flooded with comic book films? Okay.
Posted on 4/1/17 at 6:50 pm to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
quote:
I think Hollywood mostly just focusing on the 12-16 year old demographic killed the Western.
The vast majority of film Westerns were also aimed at 12 to 16 year olds. There's just more for 12 to 16 year olds to be interested in now.
Posted on 4/1/17 at 6:59 pm to Jack Ruby
Many reasons:
1. Overexposure. In 1959 25% of all prime time network programs were westerns.
2. The increasing urbanization of American culture. The western is a rural/small town genre.
And I mean urbanization in every sense. While blacks were present in the old west, as settlers, cowboys, outlaws, and even lawmen (Bass Reeves), their impact was generally marginal. The modern American culture that has 13% of the population dominating TV, movies, and music has no use for it.
3. Politics. Liberal sentimentality about Indians has made it nearly impossible to portray them as villains.
In a more general sense, SJW Political Correctness attacks any celebration of American history. The western celebrates the taming and settling of a savage land -- er, I mean glorifies Eurocentric genocide against indigenous peoples and rape of the environment.
If for some reason you still like westerns even though they're clearly only for jingoistic racists, check out my TV western thread
1. Overexposure. In 1959 25% of all prime time network programs were westerns.
2. The increasing urbanization of American culture. The western is a rural/small town genre.
And I mean urbanization in every sense. While blacks were present in the old west, as settlers, cowboys, outlaws, and even lawmen (Bass Reeves), their impact was generally marginal. The modern American culture that has 13% of the population dominating TV, movies, and music has no use for it.
3. Politics. Liberal sentimentality about Indians has made it nearly impossible to portray them as villains.
In a more general sense, SJW Political Correctness attacks any celebration of American history. The western celebrates the taming and settling of a savage land -- er, I mean glorifies Eurocentric genocide against indigenous peoples and rape of the environment.
If for some reason you still like westerns even though they're clearly only for jingoistic racists, check out my TV western thread
Posted on 4/1/17 at 7:02 pm to Jack Ruby
They didn't die, they just went through a fad where they had an unsustainably high market share similar to that of the superhero movies now.
The market got saturated by loads of low quality stuff as studios tried to get in on the money train, and demand dropped back to normal levels.
The market got saturated by loads of low quality stuff as studios tried to get in on the money train, and demand dropped back to normal levels.
Posted on 4/1/17 at 7:04 pm to Fewer Kilometers
quote:Just that phrase shows the change
Changes in social norms made the slaughter of Native Americans less attractive as a film backdrop.
And it isn't just liberals. I see posters on here who insist they are to the right of Attila The Hun talk about "Native Americans"
That may be the most successful brainwashing of our generation -- more than "African American" and even as much as "gay"
Posted on 4/1/17 at 7:08 pm to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
quote:I've read that as difficult as it is to sell a western in the US, it's even harder overseas -- which is now where around 70% of studio revenue comes from (in the days of Gone With The Wind that % was reversed). Foreigners apparently see the western as glorifying American imperialism
They tried to make Magnificent Seven remake as comic-booky as possible and it still barely broke even
Posted on 4/1/17 at 7:09 pm to Fewer Kilometers
quote:
Because the theaters are constantly flooded with comic book films? Okay.
Do they not turn out a profit?
Posted on 4/1/17 at 7:09 pm to Jack Ruby
There aren't enough new samurai movies for them to rip off.
Posted on 4/1/17 at 7:12 pm to Brosef Stalin
quote:Kurosawa admits 7 Samurai was influenced by westerns, and Yojimbo was an uncredited version of Dashiell Hammett's Red Harvest, which is essentially a western updated to the '20s.
There aren't enough new samurai movies for them to rip off
So, to paraphrase a line credited to Joan Crawford, whom is ripping off whom...
Posted on 4/1/17 at 7:51 pm to Fewer Kilometers
quote:
The vast majority of film Westerns were also aimed at 12 to 16 year olds.
Unforgiven
Open Range
Lonesome Dove
True Grit
Are not aimed at today's iphone/twitter 12-16 year olds.
They would find it boring as shite.
This post was edited on 4/1/17 at 7:52 pm
Posted on 4/1/17 at 8:10 pm to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
I grow up in the 60's, western donated the small screen and the large for many years.
56-64 western tv shows were in re-runs on tv for years near into the 70's.
Look at the westerns released from 55-70, there are more westerns than any other genre in those years, big budgets and big stars.
It was over sold to long and you still see all the shows and movies on tv all the time.
It is hard to resale the same plot line that long.
The comic book super hero movies are ok, but are growing long in the tooth.
I have seen 100's of westerns and near every episode of all the western tv shows from 56-75.
When you place that much of one genre on tv, it is easy to see why it is not a big seller today.
To go with that, todays make up of the US is all about action, action, action, very little into a good story.
56-64 western tv shows were in re-runs on tv for years near into the 70's.
Look at the westerns released from 55-70, there are more westerns than any other genre in those years, big budgets and big stars.
It was over sold to long and you still see all the shows and movies on tv all the time.
It is hard to resale the same plot line that long.
The comic book super hero movies are ok, but are growing long in the tooth.
I have seen 100's of westerns and near every episode of all the western tv shows from 56-75.
When you place that much of one genre on tv, it is easy to see why it is not a big seller today.
To go with that, todays make up of the US is all about action, action, action, very little into a good story.
Posted on 4/1/17 at 8:13 pm to Kafka
quote:
I've read that as difficult as it is to sell a western in the US, it's even harder overseas
And yet you could argue that was BY FAR the most popular genre for American films overseas up to 30 years ago...and certainly the entire 20th century.
How many times has anybody met a foreigner and the first thing they say when you mention you are American..."something Cowboy this or Cowboy that." John Wayne, etc.
But yeah...America is known as the Cowboy. The West. Seriously by itself defines America to a foreign audience. You got some New York in there...but it really was the Western states that people identify America with in the movies.
And if the international market keeps hating America, by proxy they will hate the American Western - because that's what we are identified with.
This post was edited on 4/1/17 at 8:15 pm
Posted on 4/1/17 at 8:22 pm to Jack Ruby
quote:
As superheroes, sequels, and international appeal influence Hollywood studios, films from the frontier are riding off into the sunset—just when America needs them most.
Westerns have earned their place at the heart of the national culture and American iconography abroad because they've provided a reliable vehicle for filmmakers to explore thorny issues of American history and character.
Through the past century of Western movies, we can trace America's self-image as it evolved from a rough-and-tumble but morally confident outsider in world affairs to an all-powerful sheriff with a guilty conscience
After World War I and leading into World War II, Hollywood specialized in tales of heroes taking the good fight to savage enemies and saving defenseless settlements in the process.
In the Great Depression especially, as capitalism and American exceptionalism came under question, the cowboy hero was often mistaken for a criminal and forced to prove his own worthiness--which he inevitably did. Over the '50s, '60s, and '70s however, as America enforced its dominion over half the planet with a long series of coups, assassinations, and increasingly dubious wars, the figure of the cowboy grew darker and more complicated.
If you love Westerns, most of your favorites are probably from this era--Shane, The Searchers, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, McCabe & Mrs. Miller, the spaghetti westerns, etc. By the height of the Vietnam protest era, cowboys were antiheroes as often as they were heroes.
Why the Western matters
Posted on 4/1/17 at 8:51 pm to Kafka
quote:
2. The increasing urbanization of American culture. The western is a rural/small town genre.
This is probably the biggest reason. Just isn't relatable to a mass audience anymore.
quote:
Liberal sentimentality about Indians has made it nearly impossible to portray them as villains.
Not sure this is much of a factor. You can do a Western with a white villain.
Posted on 4/1/17 at 9:00 pm to Fewer Kilometers
quote:
The vast majority of film Westerns were also aimed at 12 to 16 year olds. There's just more for 12 to 16 year olds to be interested in now.
This. And more access for those 12-16 year olds as well.
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