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re: Would you pardon Edward Snowden? Chealsea Manning?
Posted on 1/17/17 at 3:23 pm to CoachChappy
Posted on 1/17/17 at 3:23 pm to CoachChappy
quote:It's precisely the fact that 1 guy out of all the other people working there WHO KNEW THEIR BOSSES LIED and that our own government was illegally spying on us stood up and did something is why he should be pardoned. He had a great life and a great job. He gave it up to expose our own government violating the constitution. Does that not mean anything? I take it that the people who say no are cool with the idea of our government spying on us and lying under oath and violating the constitution. I swear I've seen outrage on this site about lying under oath and violating constitutional rights.....
And I totally get that, but for 1 individual to unilaterally decide that the public needs to know classified information is a bad precedent to set. While I think Snowden got it right. I'm not confident that the next person will not it right as well.
1
Posted on 1/17/17 at 3:29 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
In my opinion, the material published by the Guardian, the Intercept and the Washington Post would likely be covered under the Whistleblower Act, if Snowden previously raised his concerns to OGC and his superiors. However, none of us actually know whether or not the other documents given to Greenwald and Poitras that have not been published passed into the hands of a foreign government. Our government says they have. You believe them and I don't. Snowden and Greenwald say they haven't. I believe them and you don't. I would like a fair judicial process to parcel out these questions, I just don't think that will happen.
Posted on 1/17/17 at 3:37 pm to SCLibertarian
quote:
In my opinion, the material published by the Guardian, the Intercept and the Washington Post would likely be covered under the Whistleblower Act, if Snowden previously raised his concerns to OGC and his superiors.
That doesn't matter. Taking what you want and ignoring the rest is convenient, but that won't happen if he ever returns.
quote:
However, none of us actually know whether or not the other documents given to Greenwald and Poitras that have not been published passed into the hands of a foreign government.
Wrong.
quote:
Our government says they have. You believe them and I don't.
It isn't a matter of believing them or not.
quote:
Snowden and Greenwald say they haven't. I believe them and you don't.
Only, one of us is working with a lot less information. Forgive me if I don't take them at their word in the face of that information.
quote:
I would like a fair judicial process to parcel out these questions
You and I agree on that, but I don't think you'd like the outcome.
Posted on 1/17/17 at 3:40 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
Add to that, in response to his post, which acts does he think Snowden would be protected for? And against what type of action? Under which whistleblower law?
Posted on 1/17/17 at 3:54 pm to MasonicTiger
(no message)
This post was edited on 10/31/18 at 3:25 pm
Posted on 1/17/17 at 3:57 pm to goofball
Snowden? Absolutely
Manning? That's a harder decision.
Manning? That's a harder decision.
Posted on 1/17/17 at 3:58 pm to SCLibertarian
quote:
In my opinion, the material published by the Guardian, the Intercept and the Washington Post would likely be covered under the Whistleblower Act, if Snowden previously raised his concerns to OGC and his superiors.
White House: Snowden is not a Whistleblower
Top NSA Watchdog Who Insisted Snowden Should Have Come to Him Receives Termination Notice for Retaliating Against a Whistleblower
Posted on 1/17/17 at 3:58 pm to goofball
I'D PARDON BOTH. THEY'RE HEROES AND THEY SHOULD BE TREATED AS SUCH, MORE SO THAN THE MILITARY.
Posted on 1/17/17 at 4:00 pm to goofball
Eddie probably. Definitely not Manning.
Posted on 1/17/17 at 4:25 pm to SCLibertarian
quote:
Snowden fleeing to Russia makes sense when you look at how our country treats whistleblowers.
I missed this gem initially.
I love this argument, and I've seen you make it often. You're saying that the government being mean to other people gave Snowden pause, so obviously fleeing to China and Russia was a great idea? Priceless.
Posted on 1/17/17 at 4:30 pm to TJGator1215
quote:
MORE SO THAN THE MILITARY.
???
Posted on 1/17/17 at 6:29 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
I'm not saying it was a good idea. Read the post again. I'm saying that it makes sense. And it's not just me. Daniel Ellsberg has said the same thing. If Snowden stays, he gets arrested. If he flees to an ally of ours, he gets extradited and arrested. If he goes to an adversary of ours, he gets some control over the narrative regarding his leaks, as he isn't imprisoned without bail.
And this isn't about the government being mean, it's about our government's systemic problems in handling and prosecuting leak cases. Thomas Drake had his life ruined. Snowden would have no public interest defense for his charges of espionage. He also knew that the mainstream media, which may as well be the mouthpiece for the intelligence establishment, would do everything it could to ensure negative coverage of him. His decision to choose exile in Russia over incarceration in America seems a rational choice.
And this isn't about the government being mean, it's about our government's systemic problems in handling and prosecuting leak cases. Thomas Drake had his life ruined. Snowden would have no public interest defense for his charges of espionage. He also knew that the mainstream media, which may as well be the mouthpiece for the intelligence establishment, would do everything it could to ensure negative coverage of him. His decision to choose exile in Russia over incarceration in America seems a rational choice.
This post was edited on 1/17/17 at 6:35 pm
Posted on 1/17/17 at 6:39 pm to SCLibertarian
Of course it was a good idea for Snowden. That's the point. He knew what he was doing was wrong and he had no chance because of the information he stole. "Controlling the narrative" is a bullshite cop out. He went to Russia and China because he is a coward and knew they'd welcome him and his information with open arms. There is nothing noble or admirable about what Snowden did.
As opposed to spending the rest of it in Russia? You often argue about Snowden's "sacrifice." If Russia is such a sacrifice (it isn't), why not take his chances here?
quote:
Thomas Drake had his life ruined.
As opposed to spending the rest of it in Russia? You often argue about Snowden's "sacrifice." If Russia is such a sacrifice (it isn't), why not take his chances here?
Posted on 1/17/17 at 6:48 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
Snowden went to Hong Kong because it is a difficult place from which to be extradited. And Snowden was on his way to Ecuador when the State Department cancelled his passport, the same country which has allowed Julian Assange refuge. The State Department's revocation of his passport forced him to remain in Russia.
Posted on 1/17/17 at 7:01 pm to SCLibertarian
None of that contradicts anything I've said.
Posted on 1/17/17 at 7:02 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
I appreciate the debate again, but it's time to watch PBS for the rest of the night. Catch you later. Maybe we'll find an issue we agree on lol.
Posted on 1/17/17 at 7:04 pm to SCLibertarian
quote:
Libertarian
We probably agree on a lot more than you might think.
Posted on 1/17/17 at 7:06 pm to goofball
Not pardon, but I would negotiate a plea deal that limited their jail time to 3 years. (give or take)
We can't encourage others to willy nilly choose for themselves which national secrets should be kept. Remember, these guys made this sacrifice knowing that they faced serious penalties. Would we want the next would-be tipster to be confident that they would face no jail time or prosecution whatsoever?
We can't encourage others to willy nilly choose for themselves which national secrets should be kept. Remember, these guys made this sacrifice knowing that they faced serious penalties. Would we want the next would-be tipster to be confident that they would face no jail time or prosecution whatsoever?
Posted on 1/17/17 at 7:10 pm to SCLibertarian
(no message)
This post was edited on 10/31/18 at 3:25 pm
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