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re: Medieval battles
Posted on 8/13/16 at 3:09 pm to prplhze2000
Posted on 8/13/16 at 3:09 pm to prplhze2000
quote:
Edit: you mean swords don't just slide through well made plate armour as if it was butter?
And swords weren't massive chunks of metal wielded slowly with two hands. Not many anyway. Medieval warriors weren't lacking in common sense and were quick and skillful with swords. I think people underestimate how strong and lean Warriors were back then due to training and diet.
Posted on 8/13/16 at 4:06 pm to biglego
Not necessarily true. The Romans used much smaller swords compared to those used by the Gauls and Germans. They used those big swords en masse. One reason the Romans would beat them. They would wear out from swinging them so much while the Romans would stab, block with shield, stab, block, stab, block, rinse, repeat
Posted on 8/13/16 at 4:09 pm to chinese58
no pilii? Romans go into battle without their spears? THey would've massacred the barbs if they had in that scene.
Posted on 8/13/16 at 4:14 pm to athenslife101
Say the word with me.
Entertainment (en·ter·tain·ment)
They are not making a documentary about medieval combat.
Entertainment (en·ter·tain·ment)
They are not making a documentary about medieval combat.
This post was edited on 8/13/16 at 4:15 pm
Posted on 8/13/16 at 4:32 pm to biglego
I agree.
But I'll add: Swords are good weapons but they're awful primary battle weapons. They take a lot of room to use and are less effective against armor than other weapons. Especially in medieval times when swords were quite a bit longer.
But I'll add: Swords are good weapons but they're awful primary battle weapons. They take a lot of room to use and are less effective against armor than other weapons. Especially in medieval times when swords were quite a bit longer.
Posted on 8/13/16 at 4:35 pm to prplhze2000
The Romans used swords as a last resort. They usually started off with a volley of javelins and then used spears when they were up close. Assuming they kept a tight formation with their shields this was pretty effective.
Posted on 8/13/16 at 4:39 pm to athenslife101
quote:
The simple truth is only 5-10% of casualties of a battle happened during the battle itself. The 95% that remains are of people being ridden down when fleeing their highly structured formations. And even then, only 15-30% of an a losing army would be casualties.
You have a link to back up these statistics that you pulled out your arse?
quote:
The ideas that battles were some sort of chaotic whirl of personal combat and individuals fighting.
How do you think they went?
Posted on 8/13/16 at 4:41 pm to athenslife101
quote:
Something like this is far closer to what medieval battles looked like and in my option are far more interesting. And just because it hasn't been done her doesn't mean others wouldn't find it interesting.
You think Medieval battles were all one group of extremely organized army v a mob without weapons?
Posted on 8/13/16 at 4:43 pm to Brosef Stalin
The traditional Roman legionaries we always think of had two throwing javelins called pilliums and the gladius. The Roman legionaries rarely used spears in battle because their tactics had little need for it. They'd throw their piliums and then when they made contact with the enemy, they'd let the enemy beat of their shields, wearing themselves out while the Romans stabbed upwards, ripping their stomachs out.
But the gladius was pretty short. Almost like a dagger.
They did give spears called hasta to their auxiliaries
But the gladius was pretty short. Almost like a dagger.
They did give spears called hasta to their auxiliaries
Posted on 8/13/16 at 5:10 pm to Breesus
I didn't pull them from my arse lol. Ive seen it discussed multiple times in books and articles and read the casultiybfigures for battles.
If you want a specific book:
Ghenghis Kahn and the making of the modern world goes into this when talking about the Mongols encountering Georgia. Knights.
Also, was recently about the 30 Years War where they talk about how gunpowder changed the battlefield and made the old formations useless and it went into the retreat numbers of the Middle Ages a bit. I do believe that book was The 30 Years War
If you want a specific book:
Ghenghis Kahn and the making of the modern world goes into this when talking about the Mongols encountering Georgia. Knights.
Also, was recently about the 30 Years War where they talk about how gunpowder changed the battlefield and made the old formations useless and it went into the retreat numbers of the Middle Ages a bit. I do believe that book was The 30 Years War
Posted on 8/13/16 at 5:36 pm to athenslife101
quote:
The Romans used swords as a last resort. They usually started off with a volley of javelins and then used spears when they were up close. Assuming they kept a tight formation with their shields this was pretty effective.
True. The shield was used more as a weapon than it was by other peoples. Push, stab, push, stab. Rotate.
Posted on 8/13/16 at 6:10 pm to athenslife101
quote:
Sieges and defending fortifications were 90% of fighting in the Middle Ages.
You have a few notable epic battles like Agincourt and so forth. Agincourt saw much of the French (attacking) army killed or captured. You also have some set piece battles during the crusades that are fairly well documented.
What happened during the medieval period - in post-Roman Europe, anyway, is that the feudal knight became the dominant military force used - not because of inherent superiority, but because of logistics and strategic/operational mobility. Most battles were either sieges of a defensive position (the attacking force would have to raise a "real" army, infantry, skirmishers, engineers - all of whom moved slowly and required a huge logistics piece) - or a handful of knights and retainers fighting a similar force for a key road, river crossing or village.
A fairly well known open battle, Hastings, had approximately 17,000 participants, total, the Normans with a slight numerical edge. There were roughly 6k to 7K casualties, by most estimates, suggesting a brutal cost to such engagements, although it is likely many lingered and died of their wounds in succeeding days/weeks, rather than from acute injuries in battle.
Posted on 8/13/16 at 11:09 pm to prplhze2000
quote:
Not necessarily true. The Romans used much smaller swords compared to those used by the Gauls and Germans. They used those big swords en masse. One reason the Romans would beat them. They would wear out from swinging them so much while the Romans would stab, block with shield, stab, block, stab, block, rinse, repeat
The ancient barbarians might've had big unwieldy swords, maybe you're right. The Romans had better army, tactics, and yeah those short stabbing swords. Big swords did exist, they just weren't as prevalent as in the movies Bc men didn't want to die. I was mostly thinking of medieval warriors.
Posted on 8/13/16 at 11:33 pm to Ace Midnight
I always though Kingdom of Heaven did a good job depicting the crusader era. The Balian-Queen relationship was the obligatory fictional love story, and when Balian knighted every man in Jerusalem was the obligatory cheese moment, but otherwise it was solid. Hattin was not shown though.
Posted on 8/16/16 at 5:59 am to biglego
quote:
Big swords did exist, they just weren't as prevalent as in the movies Bc men didn't want to die. I was mostly thinking of medieval warriors.
But the long sword didn't become the prevalent sword during the medieval period because it was "better" - it was because it offered the reach required to fight from horseback. When knights became the dominant military force, infantry began to revert back to spear walls to resist cavalry charges - in some cases, the spears became ridiculously long. And, of course many knights ended up riding to the assembly area, but fighting dismounted (as most of Henry's knights did at Agincourt), as required by the terrain - but you didn't bring a lot of swords with you, so you fought with what you had.
There are some misconceptions about ancient combat as well, in this thread. The Romans didn't fight "shield-to-shield", shoulder to shoulder like the Greek hoplites. Although the limited part of the battlefield depicted in the early episode of Rome appears accurate, they were in a mopping up phase and trying to reduce casualties - that battle was already won. Romans precisely rejected the passive, hoplite combat in favor of the legion in order to cover more space with the same number of troops and reintroduce a little more maneuver and initiative in their infantry units. Romans relied almost exclusively on heavy infantry from the late republic period onward. They were mediocre cavalrymen, at best, and resorted to hiring most of their skirmish, missile and mounted troops as "auxiliaries."
Medieval combat did evolve from this foundation, but the feudal knight reigned supreme for almost 1000 years. It was a lot of individual combat, once battle was joined.
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