re: Justification for shootings by cops...

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If I'm a cop and you're resisting with a gun in your possession, there's my reasonable belief. You're dying.

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There has to be a better way and it's lazy to not find it, develop it, teach it and live it.

If a cop tells you to put your hands in the air where he/she can see them, do it.

If a cop tells you to put your hands on the car and keep them there, do it.

If you are getting arrested and cuffed, let them do their thing, and once you get your phone call let your lawyer do their thing. Everybody lives.

Keep in mind that a cop may only have a split second to make a decision - and has to live with that, provided he/she gets to go home alive at the end of their shift.

I work with a lot of LEOs at different levels. I have not run into one who wakes up in the morning saying "I am going to shoot me somebody." I know there are a few rogues just like in any other profession. However, an overwhelming majority of cops are decent and honorable people.

The best way to avoid conflict with them (which most of them really don't want either) is to obey the fricking law. Plenty of talk about equal rights. Damned little talk about equal responsibility.

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Are we just picking and choosing different scenarios?

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Yeah, because he wasn't specific with his statement.

If he says the subject is going for his weapon while resisting arrest, then sure, deadly force is warranted.

If the guy pulls away or goes limp when officers are trying to affect arrest, but he isn't trying to acquire his weapon or theirs, then it isn't deadly force.

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That's all you had to say. Thanks

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You're welcome. Since you seemed so confused and all.

Appreciated, but no need to get your feels hurt.

Look I honestly agree with your statement about the "what if the subject" argument about 1) he/she reaches for gun or 2) he/she isn't reaching for the gun. Where I and others have to understand is it is very hard in the scene of the chaos to know what exactly the subject is doing when the hands are flailing.

To draw a line and say one or the other is just subjective bias. I'm fortunate to know I will virtually never be put i that situation where I have to make a decision.

Agree to disagree?

I totally understand.

Yes, it is hard to determine, and the officer has many things to determine before he fires... trust me, even in training scenarios people freak out and do the wrong thing.

But, deadly force is a subject that many agencies are trained on and on and on, especially in these times, so they are held to that standard by law.

And I agree. It's easier to sit here and give specific scenarios like it's cut and dry, but it rarely is.

Sorry for the smartass comments before.

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I know I wasn't clear, but I meant physically fighting. Not just verbally non compliant.

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Okay. I'd be hard pressed to find where a shooting is not justified if he had a gun on him and was physically fighting.

to you too.

And I'm the same way when it comes to that subject... should be since I've been policing in a federal capacity for 15 years