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Message
re: So what has changed?
Posted on 11/19/15 at 8:37 am to BCLA
Posted on 11/19/15 at 8:37 am to BCLA
quote:
Even if you take the Jamaica game out of the equation, we struggled the entire tournament (sans Cuba).
We were out possessed, out shot, and out classed start to finish. Maybe that's why your expectations were tempered against Jamaica.
Word
0
Posted on 11/19/15 at 10:41 am to Tennessee Jed
quote:
I'm happy the sport is growing domestically.
You sounded thrilled about them here:
quote:
I call them the FIFA generation, and they are truly miserable.
Posted on 11/19/15 at 11:12 am to Tennessee Jed
quote:
All teams have peaks and valleys, and you're severely over stating our current dip in form.
You have to have a peak before you can have a valley. As a nation, we are severely outclassed and always have been aside from a few blips.
If you want to call those blips peaks, be my guest.
Since you won't really address the question of the OP, i.e. "what has changed," how about answering "why are we not progressing?"
We have a population of 320 million. Not every great athlete is playing football or basketball.
Posted on 11/19/15 at 12:52 pm to Tigertown in ATL
quote:
Since you won't really address the question of the OP, i.e. "what has changed," how about answering "why are we not progressing?" We have a population of 320 million. Not every great athlete is playing football or basketball.
As I said in another thread. Nothing has changed. The regression is being drastically overstated.
Posted on 11/19/15 at 12:52 pm to Tigertown in ATL
quote:
You have to have a peak before you can have a valley
Yah, making it out of the group of death was a peak for us. A lot of people lack perspective.
Posted on 11/19/15 at 1:20 pm to Tennessee Jed
quote:
As I said in another thread. Nothing has changed. The regression is being drastically overstated.
I agree that the regression is overstated because we never progressed. That's not what I asked.
Again, why are we not progressing?
Posted on 11/19/15 at 1:42 pm to Tigertown in ATL
quote:
Again, why are we not progressing?
Well that's the million dollar question isn't it.
Posted on 11/19/15 at 1:43 pm to Tennessee Jed
quote:
that's the million dollar question isn't it.
Indeed it is.
Posted on 11/19/15 at 3:34 pm to Tennessee Jed
quote:
Yah, making it out of the group of death was a peak for us. A lot of people lack perspective.
But but but we failed to dominate four teams that outclassed us all over the field.
Posted on 11/20/15 at 12:01 am to Tennessee Jed
quote:
A lot of people lack perspective.
I'd accuse you of the same. I don't know how anyone could defend playing players out of position, or the amorphous team shape, or the stylistic quandary we've been since the end of the WC.
I don't mind losing games necessarily, but I do mind losing games they way we have been. I don't understand how we can build a possession based system when our positioning and spacing is so poor in general. I think in some ways the American game defaults to that, but I don't think Klinsmann is the man to teach us the possession game. Even the German team he had in 2006 was based off counter-attacking at pace. And that is what I would rather we do.
And that's not to say that Klinsmann hasn't done things that should be criticized. His substitution patterns, his selection patterns, and his tactical choices are all things that can and should be criticized.
Posted on 11/20/15 at 2:22 am to Tennessee Jed
quote:
The FIFA generation does not understand the fine margins on which these games are decided.
in a thread littered with your nonsense, this one stands out the most.
You repeat a point about a video game you've used a number of times without ever demonstrating what exactly it means.
You mention fine margins casually without discussing what they are, why everyone here is wrong for not noticing them. The rest of that post should have been a masterclass of soccer for us FIFAers explaining to us what we aren't seeing, but should be seeing.
Lastly, you know who does understand the fine margins on which these games are decided? Jurgen. The man paid well to navigate these smaller tournaments and to do it rather comfortably against mostly weaker opposition. He is no longer doing that. Which circles us back to the OP's point. Why not? Are our players worse, are we worse in general, or has the manager just lost his way causing us to regress (the exact thing he was brought in to help us avoid)?
Posted on 11/20/15 at 8:39 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
His substitution patterns, his selection patterns, and his tactical choices are all things that can and should be criticized.
For what it's worth, I've never once defended Klinsmann in this thread. I would not be upset if he was fired tomorrow.
What we're seeing right now is no different than what we've seen out of the USMNT for the last 20 years. There have been peaks and valleys. We've had good runs, and we've had bad runs. Our 2015 record is not an anomaly, it's basically in line with our record every year since 2000. Were a few of the losses untimely, sure.
I think we recently agreed that it's time to reinforce playing defensive football. I feel like we did that, and did it well, against T&T.
This post was edited on 11/20/15 at 8:47 am
Posted on 11/20/15 at 9:20 am to Broski
quote:
So what has changed?
Nothing. This is really par for the course in terms of the USMNT.
Showing occasional flashes of brilliance against European sides, then marching out deflated and disoriented against CONCACAF teams has seemed to always be our modus operandi, but it is clearly getting worse.
In 2013, we thought we were witnessing a change in the program. We killed everyone in the Gold Cup, we pretty much killed everyone in the Hex, and looked poised and prepared for the World Cup. We got the results, so we ignored the fact that Jurgen was still playing guys out of position, and was still making questionable choices in roster. In the World Cup, however, I believe it was pure determination on the side of our players that allowed us to advance out of the group, not the managerial tactics of Klinsmann. Something was telling me that maybe perhaps we really hadn't gotten all that better, and it turns out to be true.
Maybe it is a confidence issue. A lot of our guys just seem to be lacking charisma and determination - as if they don't have confidence in the USMNT. They play like they're a pickup squad with zero chemistry who barely know each other. This is something that Jurgen was supposed to change, and he hasn't. His attitude about the terrible results as of late is the most worrying part, as if he has expected this all along.
So 4 years later, we've made no progress. There are only a couple young players that I feel good about coming up the rotation, but once our older guys (Dempsey, Howard, Jones, Beckerman) are phased out, I really don't know what we'll be left with or what our identity would be. We definitely need a change.
Posted on 11/20/15 at 9:43 am to Bluefin
quote:
Maybe it is a confidence issue.
I think it is a talent issue.
If those 20-30 guys are the most talented US soccer players, we are in trouble. I don't think they are.
We are a money driven society and only the affluent are playing soccer, at least where players are being seen. Kids are being recruited from clubs and the clubs are only interested in winning and prestige and attracting money so they can build the best facilities with the best grass, etc.
Factor in the parents, who are by and large driven by their own egos, and who think their kid is a special player.
If we try and fix our mess with a system, we will be mired in mediocrity forever.
Posted on 11/20/15 at 11:07 am to Tigertown in ATL
quote:
If those 20-30 guys are the most talented US soccer players, we are in trouble. I don't think they are.
I think Lletget is one of the 20 best US players and he hasn't been given a chance with the USMNT.
Posted on 11/20/15 at 12:36 pm to Bluefin
quote:
We got the results, so we ignored the fact that Jurgen was still playing guys out of position, and was still making questionable choices in roster. In the World Cup, however, I believe it was pure determination on the side of our players that allowed us to advance out of the group, not the managerial tactics of Klinsmann. Something was telling me that maybe perhaps we really hadn't gotten all that better, and it turns out to be true.
So the players weren't actually any better, and our best player of all time wasn't there, and the results were actually better than expected. All that and not only does the manager not get any credit for the results, but the whole tournament is actually seen as evidence of him being a failure because we didn't "dictate the play" against Ghana, Portugal, Germany, and Belgium?
Wtf.
I agree we have looked lost since the World Cup and it's hard to understand some of his decisions, but the villainization of him is crazy.
Listening to the latest MiB should give y'all some pause about the outright character assassination you've been participating in for the last year and a half.
He is a relatively poor tactician with some big ideas about US soccer. He knows we aren't good enough, that the players aren't anywhere good enough, and he doesn't care about hurting people's feelings while doing what he thinks is best in the long run.
Despite that, when push came to shove at the World Cup, he brought the team together and they overachieved.
It wouldn't bother me if we fired him tomorrow, but the one-sided view of his tenure is immature, group think driven bullshite.
Posted on 11/20/15 at 12:37 pm to uway
uway is on fire. 100% spot on in this thread and the other.
Posted on 11/20/15 at 12:41 pm to Tennessee Jed
I just gave you the only upvote that post will get you.
Posted on 11/20/15 at 12:47 pm to uway
quote:
the one-sided view of his tenure is immature, group think driven bullshite.
You make good points and then finish up with this. Sometimes it is best to know when to stop.
Posted on 11/20/15 at 12:48 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
I don't know how anyone could defend playing players out of position, or the amorphous team shape, or the stylistic quandary we've been since the end of the WC.
I don't defend it.
Someone COULD defend it by claiming that Jurgen doesn't care as much about the non World Cup games as he does about what happens in 2018, so he's trying anything and anybody to see what he can do, under the correct belief that our 2014 WC roster and retreads from previous rosters are simply not good enough to raise the bar in 2018.
I think that's basically what he's been doing, but I don't defend it because I think he might have done it so much that we might struggle to qualify in an improved CONCACAF.
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