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Lebron vs Kobe and the importance of winning
Posted on 2/27/15 at 10:07 am
Posted on 2/27/15 at 10:07 am
For the record, I don't agree at all with the notion that winning is the best way to judge the greatness of a player- in any sport. I somewhat can see in basketball how it matters because 1 player can make a much greater difference, but in the end it is still a team game and number of titles is not an indication of where you rank amongst the greats.
Now, about Kobe vs. Lebron (comparing both in their primes). The only argument Kobe has on Lebron is rings. Lebron is a more efficient and better scorer, and most definitely a better passer. I think the versatility Lebron has on D makes him an easy choice for better defender. Rebounding, I think Lebron has a higher avg. but considering he's a forward, not going to count that against Kobe.
So if the argument is winning, I don't see how you can blindly ignore the drastic effect Lebron has on his team's winning. Lebron's first stint in Cleveland, he came in as a rookie and immediately improved them. Got them to the playoffs by his second or third year which was an impressive feat in it's own right. Had them get to the finals, and had them as legit title contenders for 3 years or so, on a roster with no one at all. Lebron left the Cavs and they went instantly from contender to last in the league. That's an outstanding difference. Now, he leaves Miami and even though they replaced him with a quality SF in Deng, and have had Whiteside emerge as an exxtremely talented center, they are still fighting to get into the 8 or 7 seed in an awful at the bottom east. Yes, they've had injuries, but they have dealt with that the past 2 years and still been title contenders playing in June. (Without a Center like Whiteside). Now Lebron goes to the Cavs and they go from missing the playoffs in East to contenders again (albeit they also added Love, even if he's dissapointed so far, and some nice role players).
It's more difficult to see Kobe's impact because he's always been a Laker. But when they lost Shaq (undoubtedly a better and more dominant player than anyone Lebron has ever played with), they were pretty bad. Kobe had poor talent around him, granted, but they still were bad. Missed the playoffs one year, and were not contenders until they got Gasol. The West is and was a lot more tough than the East, so I wouldn't expect him to take a bad team to the finals like Bron did, but at least have them competitive.
Long post but in conclusion, I think Lebron helps his team win a lot more than Kobe despite Kobe's ring advantage. Both are all-time great players but personally I seee Kobe as top 10-20ish all time great, and Lebron as top 5.
Now, about Kobe vs. Lebron (comparing both in their primes). The only argument Kobe has on Lebron is rings. Lebron is a more efficient and better scorer, and most definitely a better passer. I think the versatility Lebron has on D makes him an easy choice for better defender. Rebounding, I think Lebron has a higher avg. but considering he's a forward, not going to count that against Kobe.
So if the argument is winning, I don't see how you can blindly ignore the drastic effect Lebron has on his team's winning. Lebron's first stint in Cleveland, he came in as a rookie and immediately improved them. Got them to the playoffs by his second or third year which was an impressive feat in it's own right. Had them get to the finals, and had them as legit title contenders for 3 years or so, on a roster with no one at all. Lebron left the Cavs and they went instantly from contender to last in the league. That's an outstanding difference. Now, he leaves Miami and even though they replaced him with a quality SF in Deng, and have had Whiteside emerge as an exxtremely talented center, they are still fighting to get into the 8 or 7 seed in an awful at the bottom east. Yes, they've had injuries, but they have dealt with that the past 2 years and still been title contenders playing in June. (Without a Center like Whiteside). Now Lebron goes to the Cavs and they go from missing the playoffs in East to contenders again (albeit they also added Love, even if he's dissapointed so far, and some nice role players).
It's more difficult to see Kobe's impact because he's always been a Laker. But when they lost Shaq (undoubtedly a better and more dominant player than anyone Lebron has ever played with), they were pretty bad. Kobe had poor talent around him, granted, but they still were bad. Missed the playoffs one year, and were not contenders until they got Gasol. The West is and was a lot more tough than the East, so I wouldn't expect him to take a bad team to the finals like Bron did, but at least have them competitive.
Long post but in conclusion, I think Lebron helps his team win a lot more than Kobe despite Kobe's ring advantage. Both are all-time great players but personally I seee Kobe as top 10-20ish all time great, and Lebron as top 5.
Posted on 2/27/15 at 10:25 am to Tigerfan56
quote:
Lebron is a more efficient and better scorer
I disagree. Kobe in his prime was a better scorer.
quote:
I think the versatility Lebron has on D makes him an easy choice for better defender.
Disagree there, too. I think both are a bit overrated on D but I don't think he's an easy choice for being a better defender. Again, that's assuming we are talking about in their prime as you mentioned. He is the better overall player though.
Posted on 2/27/15 at 10:34 am to Tigerfan56
quote:
I think Lebron helps his team win a lot more than Kobe despite Kobe's ring advantage.
Tonight on the 10 Oclock News: MAN LANDS ON THE MOON
Posted on 2/27/15 at 10:38 am to RonBurgundy
So Timmay has been in more playoff games than mostly expansion teams from the 80s and 90s?
GROUNDBREAKING!!!!
GROUNDBREAKING!!!!
Posted on 2/27/15 at 10:50 am to PortCityTiger24
quote:
I disagree. Kobe in his prime was a better scorer.
You either don't know what "better" means or you don't know what "efficient" means.
Posted on 2/27/15 at 12:09 pm to SystemsGo
quote:
You either don't know what "better" means or you don't know what "efficient" means.
Kobe was pretty efficient in 2006 when he averaged almost 36 ppg for the entire season in the stacked west playing 1 against 5 every night.
Lebron shies away from that level of consistent aggressiveness and defers often because he's a coward making his "numbers" look better.
Posted on 2/27/15 at 12:16 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
Kobe was pretty efficient in 2006 when he averaged almost 36 ppg for the entire season in the stacked west playing 1 against 5 every night.
He wasn't efficient. He definitely took a lot of shots though.
quote:
Lebron shies away from that level of consistent aggressiveness and defers often because he's a coward making his "numbers" look better.
So.. Lebron shies away from be aggresive and defers to others and STILL has better numbers? That's crazy.
Posted on 2/27/15 at 12:28 pm to Dr. Shultz
quote:
He wasn't efficient. He definitely took a lot of shots though.
In context to what how he had to play - yeah he was.
Why hasn't Lebron ever approached that level of ppg? If he's the "most efficient" should he not take many many more shots?
Kobe was playing insane that year - outscoring teams by himself at times.
Posted on 2/27/15 at 12:37 pm to theunknownknight
Pretty spot on post. LBJ makes a team so much better than Kobe ever thought of. Pretty simple
Posted on 2/27/15 at 12:42 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
Why hasn't Lebron ever approached that level of ppg? If he's the "most efficient" should he not take many many more shots?
PER is a measure of player efficiency. yes?
LeBron had a higher PER than Kobe in 05-06.
Kobe's career high PER was in 05-06
Kobe's career high PER (28.11) wouldn't even make it into LeBrons top 5 seasons.
Hence, in over 50% of the season in LeBron's career so far, he has played at a higher efficiency level than Kobe did during his best season ever.
So yeah. LeBron is the "most efficient" so i guess you can stop using quotations marks and realize it's a fact, not an opinion.
I will however retract my statement that Kobe wasn't efficient that year. I still don't think him taking 27 shots per game was a good thing for his team.
This post was edited on 2/27/15 at 12:44 pm
Posted on 2/27/15 at 12:52 pm to Dr. Shultz
im a lebron fan and a kobe hater. But i love watching great talent.. both have it! I have been to watch both play a couple times even though i dislike kobe and the lakers.. but in his prime he was an awesome talent. My dislike has nothing to do with his on court ability. Here is my thoughts
Kobe better shooter
kobe going to take last shot no matter what
kobe more serious practice/games/locker room, its all business.. dont care if he makes friends on the team
lebron better passer
lebron better teamate
lebron is bigger, stronger, jump higher
lebron is going to have team chemistry wherever he goes, he is a people person
They are 2 different players with 2 different styles. I have never met either so my next statement is based on my opinion. Lebron is a better teamate, someone the team will rally behind. Someone who will do whatever he thinks is best to win even if that is passing up the final shot because someone else is wide open, thats his job as a teamate to trust them. It all depends on what you are looking for as a teamate or a player if your a gm or coach. Both will always be mentioned as greats i believe, and thats all you can ask if your a player, because bottom line.... none compare to Mj
Kobe better shooter
kobe going to take last shot no matter what
kobe more serious practice/games/locker room, its all business.. dont care if he makes friends on the team
lebron better passer
lebron better teamate
lebron is bigger, stronger, jump higher
lebron is going to have team chemistry wherever he goes, he is a people person
They are 2 different players with 2 different styles. I have never met either so my next statement is based on my opinion. Lebron is a better teamate, someone the team will rally behind. Someone who will do whatever he thinks is best to win even if that is passing up the final shot because someone else is wide open, thats his job as a teamate to trust them. It all depends on what you are looking for as a teamate or a player if your a gm or coach. Both will always be mentioned as greats i believe, and thats all you can ask if your a player, because bottom line.... none compare to Mj
Posted on 2/27/15 at 12:59 pm to Dr. Shultz
Replied before I saw you said Kobe was efficient. My fault.
This post was edited on 2/27/15 at 1:01 pm
Posted on 2/27/15 at 3:29 pm to Tigerfan56
In this discussion the most relevant point is that Lebron does one key thing that Kobe doesn't.....make those around him better
Posted on 2/27/15 at 4:23 pm to theunknownknight
quote:If only they allowed passing in the game of basketball, I would bet that passing to a wide-open teammate would be more efficient than shooting a contested jumper.
Why hasn't Lebron ever approached that level of ppg? If he's the "most efficient" should he not take many many more shots?
Posted on 2/27/15 at 5:26 pm to PortCityTiger24
quote:That's debatable. Kobe was a higher volume scorer, and did have a better jumpshot. Still, Lebron's always been more efficient and more versatile. I agree with everything in the OP.
Kobe was a better scorer
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