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rifle twist question

Posted on 1/16/15 at 8:40 pm
Posted by mack the knife
EBR
Member since Oct 2012
4189 posts
Posted on 1/16/15 at 8:40 pm
i know this is important but not sure why. higher velocity = tighter rotation required or just the opposite?
ill hang up and listen
Posted by POONHOUND
Member since Nov 2010
1505 posts
Posted on 1/16/15 at 8:46 pm to
twist basics
Pretty informational stuff. A lot of the twist comes down to bullet weight and length.
Posted by mack the knife
EBR
Member since Oct 2012
4189 posts
Posted on 1/16/15 at 8:56 pm to
not bad basic info but im looking for more .30 cal-type specific info
Posted by kengel2
Team Gun
Member since Mar 2004
31099 posts
Posted on 1/16/15 at 9:39 pm to
It all has to do with bullet stabilization. A heavier bullet or longer like the links says needs a faster twist to help it stabilize when it leaves the barrel. Having to slow of twist can cause keyholing or bad groups. Although to slow of a twist can cause I'll effects, I've rarely rarely seen to fast of twist cause bad accuracy. Normally people claim that the bullet "over revs" essentially and explodes. I've never seen this, but I don't shoot magnums or crazy calibers.

A higher velocity may help a bullet stabilize, but according to Bryan litz's book its effect isn't that great or hardly noticeable.

Think of it like rear end gears in a car. To low of a gear and you'll be at 8000rpms at 30mph. To high of a gear and you'll just stall because you don't have enough power to move the car. It needs to be just right so the car performs perfectly.

What you need to decide is what the end use of the gun is and what bullet you want to shoot. Then you can determine twist rate. A good standard twist for 30 cal is 1:11.75 for 308 or 1:10 for 300 win mag. These are just norms, other twist rates may work.

This post was edited on 1/16/15 at 9:45 pm
Posted by kengel2
Team Gun
Member since Mar 2004
31099 posts
Posted on 1/16/15 at 9:47 pm to
If you are really interested pick up Bryan litz's book "Applied Ballistics for long range shooting." Its full of awesome information.
Posted by mack the knife
EBR
Member since Oct 2012
4189 posts
Posted on 1/16/15 at 9:49 pm to
understood. however, clarify this: yrs ago me and a buddy reloaded 44mag rounds in wadcutter w/o copper jackets and had nothing but keyholing (we <17 yrs old at the time). if the barrel we used had a slower rate of twist would we had been able to stabilize the projectile?
ps: the rifiling in my super redhawk was some kinda messed up after that
Posted by bbvdd
Memphis, TN
Member since Jun 2009
25200 posts
Posted on 1/16/15 at 10:08 pm to
Shouldn't use non jacketed bullets in a gun like a .44 mag.

At least that's what I've always been told. The bullet is too fast.
Posted by kengel2
Team Gun
Member since Mar 2004
31099 posts
Posted on 1/16/15 at 10:08 pm to
A slower twist could have helped because a wadcutter is a short bullet design. It requires less twist to stabilize and almost certainly this was a case of to fast of twist for that bullet. This is why if you are building a gun for accuracy and precision its almost backwards. Decide the end use and bullet and then build the gun.
Posted by mack the knife
EBR
Member since Oct 2012
4189 posts
Posted on 1/16/15 at 10:18 pm to
got it, but the 44 mag reload eas offered as a true-life example from LONG ago. im really more interested in .30 cal ammo and how bullet length/gr weight/rate of twist interacts.
Posted by kengel2
Team Gun
Member since Mar 2004
31099 posts
Posted on 1/17/15 at 6:38 am to
I hate to sound like a sunshine pumper, but pick up that book. It has all the explanations in it.

If you just want to play around jbm ballistics has stability calulator you can play with.

LINK
Posted by CCTiger
Memphis, TN
Member since Jan 2005
99 posts
Posted on 1/17/15 at 7:56 am to
You might try this: LINK /

Generally longer bullets need a higher rate of twist, but velocity, atmospheric conditions play a role.

As an aside, you probably shot the 44 mag lead (not gas checked, I am guessing) at too high a velocity for the lead "blend" you were reloading.
Posted by TigerOnThe Hill
Springhill, LA
Member since Sep 2008
6837 posts
Posted on 1/17/15 at 1:30 pm to
quote:

the rifiling in my super redhawk was some kinda messed up after that

If you were pushing lead bullets > 900-1000 fps muzzle velocity you probably deposited a lot of lead in your barrel. I doubt the rifling was actually damaged. Lead bullets in the 44 Mag are fine, as long as they're shot at 44 Special velocities. Lead in the barrel can be remedied by removing it w/ a special tool or by shooting a handful of supersonic jacketed bullets in the gun.
Posted by TigerOnThe Hill
Springhill, LA
Member since Sep 2008
6837 posts
Posted on 1/17/15 at 1:40 pm to
It's not complicated. Decide the end use of the gun w/ particular bullet(s) you want to use and run the calculations to determine the appropriate twist for the barrel.

Sometimes folks will choose a rapid twist barrel to handle a broader range of bullet weights. There's nothing wrong w/ that, but by doing so one may loose velocity when shooting lighter bullets. I had a 6mm Rem BR XlP-100 handgun built for prairie dog hunting. I used a slow twist (1:14") barrel that had been taken off a benchrest gun. I wanted to use lighter bullets (75 grains and less) and wasn't concerned that it probably wouldn't shoot bullets 80 grains and heavier. Indeed, it shoots many loads using bullets weighing 75 gr and less in an avg group <1/2" at 100 yds. Just out of curiosity, I shot some 80 gr bullets.......4" group at 100 yds. W/ the slow twist barrel I get a slightly higher muzzle velocity w/ the light bullets than what's reported by do folks using the same bullets w/ a fast twist barrel.
Posted by Geauxtiga
No man's land
Member since Jan 2008
34377 posts
Posted on 1/17/15 at 5:43 pm to
How can one know what twist they have? I have a 270 that was given to me years ago. I've never given consideration to twist, though I haven't shot a rifle much either but thinking about starting to deer/pig hunt some so I'm curious.
Posted by kengel2
Team Gun
Member since Mar 2004
31099 posts
Posted on 1/17/15 at 5:51 pm to
LINK

On my phone but look at the link if the barrel isn't marked.
Posted by Geauxtiga
No man's land
Member since Jan 2008
34377 posts
Posted on 1/17/15 at 6:28 pm to
Thank you.


EDIT: Too much I don't understand.


quote:

Put a dry, loose fitting patch (so it doesn’t get stuck in your barrel) on a jag and put your rod into your barrel from either the muzzle end or the chamber end. (Note: When putting a rod into the muzzle end, be careful not to damage the crown/muzzle).
What is a "jag?"

What part, exactly is a "crown muzzle" and how can it be damaged? (Not knowing that prevents me from knowing how NOT to damage it).



quote:

Near the handle of the rod place a piece of tape on the top of the rod. Push the rod into the barrel.
If I'm holding the "handle" how will putting tape there? Isn't the other end going into he barrel?

quote:

You will see the piece of tape travel one full revolution as the rifling turns the rod.
How will that happen?


This post was edited on 1/17/15 at 6:41 pm
Posted by kengel2
Team Gun
Member since Mar 2004
31099 posts
Posted on 1/17/15 at 6:51 pm to
Jag is a piece that fits on the end of the cleaning rod, it's what holds the patch.

The crown is where the bullet exits, most have an angled edge. Just don't want to scratch or damage it.

The tape is to see when the rifling makes one full revolution and the distance the rod traveled. You could use a sharpie and just make a mark.

Most good cleaning rods have ball bearings in the handle so they spin freely. This keeps people from jacking up their barrels. If you don't have like this just let the rod turn in your fingers as you pull. You need it to spin so you can see one revolution. I'll see if I can find a YouTube video. Its easier than it sounds.


ETA: Larry Potterfield to the rescue.

MidwayUSA video
This post was edited on 1/17/15 at 9:10 pm
Posted by TigerOnThe Hill
Springhill, LA
Member since Sep 2008
6837 posts
Posted on 1/17/15 at 11:34 pm to
quote:

How can one know what twist they have? I have a 270 that was given to me years ago.

It's good to know how your gun works, but to honest I wouldn't spend time worrying about twist as long as you're shooting a 270 Win w/ bullets from 130-150 gr; the factory twist will handle these loads just fine.
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