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Top 5 "over-covered" (read: wrong) Vatican stories of the year
Posted on 12/28/14 at 4:59 pm
Posted on 12/28/14 at 4:59 pm
And a few other observations
quote:
No. 2: The Pope on evolution
On Oct. 27, Francis spoke to the Academy of Sciences and said “evolution in nature is not opposed to the notion of creation,” adding that God is not a “magician” who creates with a “magic wand.”
The statement was hailed as revolutionary, until people hit Google and found citations demonstrating that popes had been saying the exact same thing since Pius XII published the encyclical Humani Generis in 1950. John Paul II famously called evolution “more than a hypothesis.”
The moral here is, just because some people are paying attention to a pope for the first time does not make everything he does a first.
quote:
No. 1: Pets in heaven
The winner by a country mile, this story got started on Nov. 27 when Francis gave a talk about redemption and said it means “the bringing of all things into the fullness of being.”
An Italian newspaper speculated that perhaps Francis meant to include pets in that judgment, and quoted a famous line from Pope Paul VI to a boy who had lost his dog that “we will see our animals again in heaven.”
As the story made its way into English, it came to seem as if Francis had been the one to speak the line to the distraught boy, and from there it was a short leap to styling it as another example of a maverick pontiff breaking the mold.
Once again, a great story with the small flaw of being factually wrong.
If you’ve got some time over the holidays, you might think about organizing a fantasy league for potential over-played Vatican stories to come in 2015. Alas, there’s no shortage of draft prospects.
quote:
On Christmas Day Francis turned his ire to the world, blasting it for “complicit silence” and a “globalization of indifference” to a whole laundry list of ills, beginning with the abuse and exploitation of children and the “brutal persecution” currently underway in Iraq and Syria.
The pope became visibly emotional discussing the suffering of children, saying, “Truly there are so many tears this Christmas, which join the tears of the child Jesus.”
Media coverage of both performances was enthusiastic. The Curia speech was hailed as a reformer speaking truth to power, while the Urbi et Orbi was seen as a classic statement of Francis’ compassion.
While the speeches were masterfully crafted to ring bells, it’s worth pausing for a moment to ponder how reaction might have played out if it had been a different pope who said these things — for instance, had it been Pope Benedict XVI.
(For the record, Benedict easily could have given either speech. In 2005, he famously penned a Good Friday meditation about the need to confront the “filth” in the Church, and of course he suffered through the tawdry Vatican leaks affair, so he yields to no one in grasping the need for a housecleaning. He’s also passionate about the suffering of innocents and social justice, in part reflecting a family legacy of involvement in populist Bavarian farmer and labor movements in the 19th century.)
Had it been Benedict XVI, there’s a good chance the take-away might have been, “What a downer!”
Images of a tired, isolated, and defensive pope offering an increasingly bleak and hopeless diagnosis might have been framed, and it’s not much of a leap to imagine words such as “apocalyptic” and “pessimistic” featuring prominently in much commentary.
Yet because few people are inclined to see Francis in those terms, even his harsh rhetoric somehow comes off as uplifting and inspiring.
This post was edited on 12/28/14 at 5:00 pm
Posted on 12/28/14 at 7:21 pm to TN Bhoy
Just happened again on CBS.
So apparently Birth Control, Pre marital sex, gay marriage etc. is up to discussion. So so so so wrong. Those are matters of doctrine not discipline the Pope has no Authority to change even that.
So apparently Birth Control, Pre marital sex, gay marriage etc. is up to discussion. So so so so wrong. Those are matters of doctrine not discipline the Pope has no Authority to change even that.
Posted on 12/28/14 at 7:39 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
So apparently Birth Control, Pre marital sex, gay marriage etc. is up to discussion. So so so so wrong. Those are matters of doctrine not discipline the Pope has no Authority to change even that.
I'm not well-versed in Vatican administrative procedure, but who/what would have the authority the change the doctrine concerning those things?
Some sort of meeting of Cardinals or a special council?
Posted on 12/28/14 at 7:56 pm to boosiebadazz
quote:
I'm not well-versed in Vatican administrative procedure, but who/what would have the authority the change the doctrine concerning those things?
Some sort of meeting of Cardinals or a special council?
No-one has the authority. Well outside of Christ himself.
Posted on 12/28/14 at 8:01 pm to catholictigerfan
So Church doctrine on those issues is directly from Christ and cannot and will not ever change?
For some reason, that rigidity doesn't seem right. What if God himself wanted to change the Church's teaching? Is there not a Council that can be called where He can speak to the hearts of the attendees?
For some reason, that rigidity doesn't seem right. What if God himself wanted to change the Church's teaching? Is there not a Council that can be called where He can speak to the hearts of the attendees?
This post was edited on 12/28/14 at 8:06 pm
Posted on 12/28/14 at 8:02 pm to catholictigerfan
He's a communist. Our press is willing to lie to make communists seem cool.
That's pretty much the end of it.
It makes me hang my head when my "conservative" friends talk about how awesome this pinko is.
That's pretty much the end of it.
It makes me hang my head when my "conservative" friends talk about how awesome this pinko is.
Posted on 12/28/14 at 8:21 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
Just happened again on CBS.
So apparently Birth Control, Pre marital sex, gay marriage etc. is up to discussion. So so so so wrong. Those are matters of doctrine not discipline the Pope has no Authority to change even that.
Serious question: why not? If his word is infallible and he speaks for God, does he not have the ability to change catholic doctrine?
Posted on 12/28/14 at 8:28 pm to TigerPride10
quote:It's really only technically possible that he could.
Serious question: why not?
quote:Only when he says he's speaking for God.
If his word is infallible and he speaks for God
Posted on 12/28/14 at 8:35 pm to TN Bhoy
When I hear "over-covered" and "Vatican" I think of the molestation cover up.
ETA: Anyone else notice the love from some for the Pope and church now? Like 10 years ago the pope was shite and nobody really believed him. Now that the pope has more 'mainstream' views he is more accepted? I understand it is a different pope, but if religion/the pope/catholicism were bullshite before, why the sudden acceptance?
ETA: Anyone else notice the love from some for the Pope and church now? Like 10 years ago the pope was shite and nobody really believed him. Now that the pope has more 'mainstream' views he is more accepted? I understand it is a different pope, but if religion/the pope/catholicism were bullshite before, why the sudden acceptance?
This post was edited on 12/28/14 at 8:41 pm
Posted on 12/28/14 at 8:49 pm to boosiebadazz
It may have been wrong to say that they are all doctrines.
It is this simple
Dogma unchangeable because Christ himself said it
Doctrine can develop so meaning we can come to a deeper understanding but a doctrine defined by the Church can't be changed only developed. Only the Pope and councils can define these. In Doctrine there are different levels, some are infallible others are not infallible. Birth Control isn't infallible doctrine but the Pope isn't going to change it. Pre Marital sex is a violation of the tenth commandment so that isn't going to change. Same with Gay Marriage. I would say these are dogmas not doctrine.
Discipline changeable and much lower standards.
Dogma is something like Divinity of Christ, etc.
Doctrine are things like Catholic Social Doctrine, certain things of morality, and many other things
Discipline, like married priesthood, lectionary, etc.
It can be hard to know what fits into what category, I don't know everyone.
It is this simple
Dogma unchangeable because Christ himself said it
Doctrine can develop so meaning we can come to a deeper understanding but a doctrine defined by the Church can't be changed only developed. Only the Pope and councils can define these. In Doctrine there are different levels, some are infallible others are not infallible. Birth Control isn't infallible doctrine but the Pope isn't going to change it. Pre Marital sex is a violation of the tenth commandment so that isn't going to change. Same with Gay Marriage. I would say these are dogmas not doctrine.
Discipline changeable and much lower standards.
Dogma is something like Divinity of Christ, etc.
Doctrine are things like Catholic Social Doctrine, certain things of morality, and many other things
Discipline, like married priesthood, lectionary, etc.
It can be hard to know what fits into what category, I don't know everyone.
Posted on 12/28/14 at 8:49 pm to TN Bhoy
one reason I have no respect for catholicism as a religion is their aptitude to change shite to keep up with society. either you believe it or you dont, either its right or its not.
muslims suck but I'll be damned if the head sandkip declares pork ok and underage sex against doctrine
muslims suck but I'll be damned if the head sandkip declares pork ok and underage sex against doctrine
Posted on 12/28/14 at 8:51 pm to TigerPride10
quote:
Serious question: why not? If his word is infallible and he speaks for God, does he not have the ability to change catholic doctrine?
Because God has more authority than the Pope and things of Dogma are unchangeable. At-least in the things he brought up the only thing he would have the power to "change" would be birth control. But Humane Vitae has closed that discussion in the Church.
It's pointless to discuss "changes" in Church doctrine when it is unlikely well almost impossible that it will happen.
Posted on 12/28/14 at 8:52 pm to Tiguar
quote:
one reason I have no respect for catholicism as a religion is their aptitude to change shite to keep up with society. either you believe it or you dont, either its right or its not.
Just ignore the fact that we are the one religion that still thinks artifical birth control is immoral.
Posted on 12/28/14 at 9:26 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:Wasn't "Humane Vitae" written by a pope? And the whole be fruitful and multiply came from Genesis which I have been told by poli board religious scholars, should not be taken literally. Odd that that one sentence is observed so strictly.
Because God has more authority than the Pope and things of Dogma are unchangeable. At-least in the things he brought up the only thing he would have the power to "change" would be birth control. But Humane Vitae has closed that discussion in the Church.
It's pointless to discuss "changes" in Church doctrine when it is unlikely well almost impossible that it will happen.
Posted on 12/28/14 at 9:33 pm to mmcgrath
Humane Vitae yes was written by the Pope, but he was just confirming the long standing tradition of the church. His statement holds just little less authority than a council or an infallible statement by a pope. It would be shocking if Francis changed it.
Also how would be fruitful and multiple not be taken literally?
Also how would be fruitful and multiple not be taken literally?
Posted on 12/28/14 at 10:37 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:Because it is in Genesis which contains a lot of things even devout religious people do not take literally. Some people on here equated it to a book of parables.
Also how would be fruitful and multiple not be taken literally?
quote:Tradition can't be dogma, but something a Pope said made it so? That is the slippery slope of organized religion. Does the Church still frown on regular contraceptives (rubbers, etc?) or was it revised to IUD's and the pill?
Humane Vitae yes was written by the Pope, but he was just confirming the long standing tradition of the church.
Posted on 12/29/14 at 8:10 am to mmcgrath
quote:
Because it is in Genesis which contains a lot of things even devout religious people do not take literally. Some people on here equated it to a book of parables.
Genesis is Allegory, but one of the truths in it is be fruitful and multiply.
quote:
Tradition can't be dogma, but something a Pope said made it so? That is the slippery slope of organized religion. Does the Church still frown on regular contraceptives (rubbers, etc?) or was it revised to IUD's and the pill?
Tradition gave us the bible, if tradition never had an influence in the Church we wouldn't have certain dogmas like, divinity of Christ, trinity, etc. Yeah you can find those things in scripture but it was tradition it was the Church that defined some of the most important doctrines in the Church in the history of the Church. If everyone just read the bible and didn't come together to decide doctrine which the Church has done for 2000 years, Christianity is so much different.
Posted on 12/29/14 at 8:20 am to Tiguar
quote:
one reason I have no respect for catholicism as a religion is their aptitude to change shite to keep up with society
Can you provide examples where you have seen the Catholic church officially "change shite to keep up with society"? I would love to know what you are thinking of.
Posted on 12/29/14 at 8:30 am to catholictigerfan
quote:
No-one has the authority. Well outside of Christ himself.
That's the crazy part, Jesus is a Jew, he doesn't even go to mass!!!
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