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Saints Salary Cap Discussion
Posted on 1/29/14 at 12:34 pm
Posted on 1/29/14 at 12:34 pm
Let's focus on the cap and what might need to be done. before you start shopping for Talib, Byrd, Orakpo, & Maclin.
First, where is the team at for 2014 cap?
The 2014 cap is not known yet but by most estimates the Saints are at a very low minimum of $13million over. Could be as high as $17mil . Let's go easy and use $13mil.
I like THIS SITE for contract layout.
Before we start on re-signing questions you have to get some cap room to sign them. Jimmy Graham if tagged as a TE will be over $6mil. So cuts and restructures.
First the cuts. Use the above link to examine the contract terms. The last three columns are what to consider.
Cap Number is what it will cost to keep the player as is
Dead Money is how much cap is obligated to the player if he was cut
Cap Savings is basically Cap $ minus the Dead $
Some players like Evans have onerous cap hits ($11mil) but with $8.5mil of it dead makes the savings if cut only $2.5mil. So taking a $8.5mil hit to save $2.5mil makes no sense- thus, virtually uncuttable. You are stuck with him whether you love him or hate him.
Will Smith is the beyond obvious easy cut. He'll still count $2.4mil against the cap sitting on the couch but will save a staggering $11.6mil worth of cap.
After Big Will it isn't as clear. Go down that list and let's discuss the possible cuts...
First, where is the team at for 2014 cap?
The 2014 cap is not known yet but by most estimates the Saints are at a very low minimum of $13million over. Could be as high as $17mil . Let's go easy and use $13mil.
I like THIS SITE for contract layout.
Before we start on re-signing questions you have to get some cap room to sign them. Jimmy Graham if tagged as a TE will be over $6mil. So cuts and restructures.
First the cuts. Use the above link to examine the contract terms. The last three columns are what to consider.
Cap Number is what it will cost to keep the player as is
Dead Money is how much cap is obligated to the player if he was cut
Cap Savings is basically Cap $ minus the Dead $
Some players like Evans have onerous cap hits ($11mil) but with $8.5mil of it dead makes the savings if cut only $2.5mil. So taking a $8.5mil hit to save $2.5mil makes no sense- thus, virtually uncuttable. You are stuck with him whether you love him or hate him.
Will Smith is the beyond obvious easy cut. He'll still count $2.4mil against the cap sitting on the couch but will save a staggering $11.6mil worth of cap.
After Big Will it isn't as clear. Go down that list and let's discuss the possible cuts...
Posted on 1/29/14 at 12:39 pm to blueslover
first up Broderick Bunkley
$6.1mil to keep as is
$4.8mil against the cap if cut, saves $1.3mil to cut
doesn't look too cuttable to me
not much better in 2015-
same number to keep
$3.2mil against the cap if cut
save net $2.9mil of cap to cut
Verdict? stuck with through 2015
After Smith we need $3mil of cut to approach even on the cap.
$6.1mil to keep as is
$4.8mil against the cap if cut, saves $1.3mil to cut
doesn't look too cuttable to me
not much better in 2015-
same number to keep
$3.2mil against the cap if cut
save net $2.9mil of cap to cut
Verdict? stuck with through 2015
After Smith we need $3mil of cut to approach even on the cap.
This post was edited on 1/29/14 at 12:50 pm
Posted on 1/29/14 at 12:52 pm to blueslover
Hate to see Pierre go but 0 dead money and 2.9 savings looks appealing.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 12:54 pm to blueslover
W. Smith - cut
D. Sproles - cut or long term smaller deal $2.7 saved
P. Thomas - cut $2.9m
M. Jenkins - cut $1.6m
thats all i got
D. Sproles - cut or long term smaller deal $2.7 saved
P. Thomas - cut $2.9m
M. Jenkins - cut $1.6m
thats all i got
This post was edited on 1/29/14 at 12:56 pm
Posted on 1/29/14 at 1:17 pm to Mr.Perfect
quote:that's imperfect
M. Jenkins - cut $1.6m
There is no savings cuz there is no contract. He's a free agent. Already gone unless re-signed.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 1:29 pm to blueslover
anyone see any alternative to keeping Bunkley?
next up Harper
$5.9mil to keep as is
If cut you save a net $2.2mil BUT he still counts $3.7mil against the cap. That's not too attractive. You can't have to many $3.7mil figures for nothing.
Best solution seems obvious to me. New deal that pays him the same $3.7mil or less. Same cap hit as cutting but you get to keep the player. He does have good in the box skills that RR implemented.
What's the call? Keep, cut, or new deal?
next up Harper
$5.9mil to keep as is
If cut you save a net $2.2mil BUT he still counts $3.7mil against the cap. That's not too attractive. You can't have to many $3.7mil figures for nothing.
Best solution seems obvious to me. New deal that pays him the same $3.7mil or less. Same cap hit as cutting but you get to keep the player. He does have good in the box skills that RR implemented.
What's the call? Keep, cut, or new deal?
Posted on 1/29/14 at 1:38 pm to blueslover
Id like to see a new deal for Harper, he had a good year.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 1:39 pm to blueslover
quote:
anyone see any alternative to keeping Bunkley?
Nope. He's ours till 2015 unless some team falls madly in love and offers.
Harper hope same team that loves Bunk wants Harper as well LOL or offer 4m redue.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 1:50 pm to Cajun Invasion
quote:
Hate to see Pierre go but 0 dead money and 2.9 savings looks appealing.
Certainly a possibility but let's look deeper...
-has led the Saints in rushing 3 of the past 6 years
-including 2013, twice as many carries as the next guy (Ingram)
-77 catches in 2013, 2nd on the team
-he had more catches than any other RB in the NFL
-IMO perhaps the best screen pass receiver/runner I have ever seen
-integral part of the team nucleus since 2007, clubhouse leader
-he was on the injury report the last 3 weeks of the season and did not play in the last two games
-for what he produces $2.9mil isn't a bad deal
It's a clear $2.9mil to save but can his production be replaced? And can you do it saving any money? We'll get to Sproles but a solid pass catching RB is a necessity for Payton.
As team friendly as his contract was, a new deal lowering the 2013 cap number could work. He won't be 30 until the end of next season.
I don't see an outright cut. What say ye?
This post was edited on 1/29/14 at 1:52 pm
Posted on 1/29/14 at 1:56 pm to blueslover
I can't see CSP dropping both PT and Sproles in the same year.
Both MI and KR are good running between the tackles and both PT and Sproles are both good at recv.
Something has to give salary wise?
Both MI and KR are good running between the tackles and both PT and Sproles are both good at recv.
Something has to give salary wise?
Posted on 1/29/14 at 2:19 pm to goatmilker
quote:
I can't see CSP dropping both PT and Sproles in the same year
I'm on board with getting the cap lean prolly more than most. What I'm seeing tho, is folks saying, yeah, cut X, Y, & Z but have no thoughts as how to replace such production. Someone does have to carry the ball and catch it.
Payton has shown nothing to think he can rely on Ingram (24 catches in 3 yrs) or Robinson (0 catches) as a receiver.
If ya wanna go lighter at RB I remember 2010- Julius Jones and Ladell Betts off the street starting 3 games is a tough way to win.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 2:24 pm to blueslover
quote:
Payton has shown nothing to think he can rely on Ingram (24 catches in 3 yrs) or Robinson (0 catches) as a receiver.
Absolutely.
Although, I think he likes Cadet. If we drop them both I see us taking a later round pick or scooping someone up in FA. Hate to say it, but I think with Sproles the "it's better to let them go a year early than a year too late." He can produce, but he's nothing left to give in returns and he's basically exclusively a third down back now. You can replace them pretty easily these days.
I think we keep Thomas longer than Sproles
This post was edited on 1/29/14 at 2:25 pm
Posted on 1/29/14 at 3:32 pm to Brettesaurus Rex
How about Harper?
What's the call? Keep, cut, or new deal?
(see post above)
What's the call? Keep, cut, or new deal?
(see post above)
Posted on 1/29/14 at 3:36 pm to blueslover
I don't know. I'm torn on him. He played pretty well this year his past considered. He fits this defense perfectly as that third S who's down in the box and exceeded in that role.
His cap hit is $5,870,000 with $3,690,000 of dead money. At that rate you might as well keep him and see if he'd be willing to restructure a bit.
His cap hit is $5,870,000 with $3,690,000 of dead money. At that rate you might as well keep him and see if he'd be willing to restructure a bit.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 3:53 pm to blueslover
I'm thinking harper stays, jenkins goes.
PT stays, sproles goes.
Agree with the "let them go a year too early then a year too late" concept.
Tough decisions to be made. This will be the offseason with the biggest turnover of personnel.
PT stays, sproles goes.
Agree with the "let them go a year too early then a year too late" concept.
Tough decisions to be made. This will be the offseason with the biggest turnover of personnel.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 4:04 pm to blueslover
I know some of you guys hate it but just like last year where we had at least 10+ guys restructure(with 3 of those being actual pay cuts), you are going to see about the same amount of restructuring this year.
Some guys will get the extension restructuring treatment. Likely PT and Sproles and maybe a few more on one year deals.
Others will get the standard bonus up front to lower the salary number and spread out the hit treatment. Likely to be guys like Bunkley, Colston, Evans, and possibly Brees(I think they'd like to save him until next year though).
Then some guys may be asked to take a pay cut. These are going to be guys that can save at least $2+ mil if cut and have more than 1 year left so they're at a weaker bargaining position. This would be guys like Greer, Moore, and Harper.
Some of these can even overlap. For instance, we may ask Sproles to take a cut without extending him but both parties would likely be happy with a cheap extension(with some up front bonus money of course). All depends on what the player wants to do though.
The only guy on there that is a 100% cut unless he takes a massive pay cut is Smith(and by massive I mean down to about vet minimum).
Just wanted to state this before everyone thinks we are going to get cut happy. That has not been our way. We have been pushing money around for at least the past 3+ years, only cutting guys we know are replaced and save enough to make sense(usually backups like Dave Thomas and Chris Chamberlain).
Some guys will get the extension restructuring treatment. Likely PT and Sproles and maybe a few more on one year deals.
Others will get the standard bonus up front to lower the salary number and spread out the hit treatment. Likely to be guys like Bunkley, Colston, Evans, and possibly Brees(I think they'd like to save him until next year though).
Then some guys may be asked to take a pay cut. These are going to be guys that can save at least $2+ mil if cut and have more than 1 year left so they're at a weaker bargaining position. This would be guys like Greer, Moore, and Harper.
Some of these can even overlap. For instance, we may ask Sproles to take a cut without extending him but both parties would likely be happy with a cheap extension(with some up front bonus money of course). All depends on what the player wants to do though.
The only guy on there that is a 100% cut unless he takes a massive pay cut is Smith(and by massive I mean down to about vet minimum).
Just wanted to state this before everyone thinks we are going to get cut happy. That has not been our way. We have been pushing money around for at least the past 3+ years, only cutting guys we know are replaced and save enough to make sense(usually backups like Dave Thomas and Chris Chamberlain).
This post was edited on 1/29/14 at 4:08 pm
Posted on 1/29/14 at 4:21 pm to blueslover
Question:
Say the Saints decide to cut Harper, and now have a cap hit of $3.7 mill. If another team picks him up for $1.5, does the Saints' cap number on Harper go down for what he signed on his new deal? I always got confused on that.
Say the Saints decide to cut Harper, and now have a cap hit of $3.7 mill. If another team picks him up for $1.5, does the Saints' cap number on Harper go down for what he signed on his new deal? I always got confused on that.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 4:27 pm to jembeurt
No. If we cut him all his salary comes off the books, but all of the already paid bonuses(usually just signing bonus) stays.
So on Harper, we are still on the hook for his $2.72 mil signing bonus from this year and his $970,000 bonus next year if we cut him before his roster bonus kicks in.
If we cut him after that, we'd save $650,000 less(his roster bonus).
So the dead money you see is his $2.72 mil this year and his $970,000 next year accelerated into this year(which can be spread out if he's designated as a June 1st cut).
So on Harper, we are still on the hook for his $2.72 mil signing bonus from this year and his $970,000 bonus next year if we cut him before his roster bonus kicks in.
If we cut him after that, we'd save $650,000 less(his roster bonus).
So the dead money you see is his $2.72 mil this year and his $970,000 next year accelerated into this year(which can be spread out if he's designated as a June 1st cut).
Posted on 1/29/14 at 4:30 pm to bonethug0108
Thanks.
I would see about a restructure with a new deal then.
I would see about a restructure with a new deal then.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 4:36 pm to bonethug0108
Jenkins walks as a FA, harper stays on a redone contract for this year.
3 starting safeties going into the season:
Vaccaro
Harper
Bush
My reasoning with dropping Jenkins? Even with a whole new scheme where everyone seems to excel in the position they were put in, jenkins showed time and time again that he is not a ballhawking FS and a poor tackler. He is an average FS and it is time for us to accept the fact that that's all he is, average. We need to improve on the position and for the money he will command, it is time to say good bye.
Keeping harper, bush, and vaccaro as our big 3 is pretty solid especially with bush showing glimpses of being able to play the safety position well without needing assistance after vaccaro went out with his injury.
We might be able to pick up an older FA vet that won't command much on a 1 year contract or a mid-late round S that could possibly be #4 on depth chart and contribute to special teams.
Next on my list:
Lance Moore
cap number - ~5mil
Dead money - ~2.5mil
cap savings - ~2.5mil
keep, redo contract, or say bye
3 starting safeties going into the season:
Vaccaro
Harper
Bush
My reasoning with dropping Jenkins? Even with a whole new scheme where everyone seems to excel in the position they were put in, jenkins showed time and time again that he is not a ballhawking FS and a poor tackler. He is an average FS and it is time for us to accept the fact that that's all he is, average. We need to improve on the position and for the money he will command, it is time to say good bye.
Keeping harper, bush, and vaccaro as our big 3 is pretty solid especially with bush showing glimpses of being able to play the safety position well without needing assistance after vaccaro went out with his injury.
We might be able to pick up an older FA vet that won't command much on a 1 year contract or a mid-late round S that could possibly be #4 on depth chart and contribute to special teams.
Next on my list:
Lance Moore
cap number - ~5mil
Dead money - ~2.5mil
cap savings - ~2.5mil
keep, redo contract, or say bye
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