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Supporters of Obamacare: Are there no free market solutions to Healthcare?
Posted on 1/10/14 at 1:36 pm
Posted on 1/10/14 at 1:36 pm
Is greater government control the only answer here?
Posted on 1/10/14 at 2:10 pm to Roaad
quote:As long as people expect to get more healthcare than they pay for... (government, or insurance making up the difference, or stiffing the doctors)... no. There is no "free market" solution.
Are there no free market solutions to Healthcare?
You have no market when "customers" are receiving product and services for "free".
Posted on 1/10/14 at 2:11 pm to Taxing Authority
So you agree that the insurance system absent of government is still not really a free market system?
Posted on 1/10/14 at 2:19 pm to Roaad
If government got out of healthcare completely insurance costs would probably go down significantly. Almost nobody actually wants that to happen. Subsidies for purchasing private health insurance is probably the closest thing to a free market solution that republicans are ever going to get. The obvious alternative is single payer.
Posted on 1/10/14 at 2:25 pm to Roaad
quote:
Are there no free market solutions to Healthcare?
Is greater government control the only answer here?
might as well ask a wolf if he wants the farmer to take down the fences that keep in his sheep
there are many alternatives to Obamacare as far as healthcare reform is concerned. here's one of my favorites:
National Review
quote:
The idea that the health arena as a whole simply is not amenable to market economics of any sort is a deeply rooted dogma for some on the left, based especially on the work of Kenneth Arrow in the 1960s and his successors, but we believe it is simply not justified. (We recommend this thoughtful reflection on the question, and on Arrow’s work, from Avik Roy.) Insurance is a financial product, decisions about coverage and care answer to discernible incentives and motives, and health care constitutes an enormous portion of both public and private spending in America. Clearly economic thinking is one of the ways of thinking we have to apply to health care. Pointing out that health care is not like consumer electronics is just too abstract a point to have much to say to our particular proposals. Similarly, the claim that health care is not like other economic goods would not constitute a sound argument for a single-payer health-care system over Obamacare (the latter being at least superficially a more market-friendly arrangement).
Finally, Sullivan builds on the reader’s comment to express his own concern about our proposal: that, compared to Obamacare, “a more bare bones insurance regime which does not have to include the basic needs of most lives, and skimps on preventative care, is a false economy.” We suspect this remark rests on a misunderstanding of our proposal that was also evident in McIntyre’s post about it. We are not proposing a regime of universal catastrophic-only policies, with perhaps some supplementary coverage packages on top of that. (There have been some proposals of that sort by others.) We propose, rather, to build on today’s insurance market, in which most people get tax-preferred coverage through an employer while other people get non-tax-preferred coverage on their own, by allowing those other people to have the same benefit provided through a credit they could use to help them buy insurance.
Posted on 1/10/14 at 2:25 pm to Roaad
quote:
Are there no free market solutions to Healthcare?
Free market is the antithesis of everything Obama and the progressives stand for. Of course their answe will be "no"
Posted on 1/10/14 at 2:31 pm to Roaad
I don't like Obamacare for a lot of reasons but I will answer your question anyway.
The main reason health care costs are so out of control in this country compared to others is because in other countries there is a clearinghouse of sorts that will collectively bargain for prices on heath care products. People with health problems are in no position to act like consumers the way they would for a car or a tv so consumers are gouged as a result.
If there were a private, yelp type organization that would bring everything together and either collectively bargain for services or make it a lot easier/more practical for people to act as they normally would as consumers then I would be fine with that.
The main reason health care costs are so out of control in this country compared to others is because in other countries there is a clearinghouse of sorts that will collectively bargain for prices on heath care products. People with health problems are in no position to act like consumers the way they would for a car or a tv so consumers are gouged as a result.
If there were a private, yelp type organization that would bring everything together and either collectively bargain for services or make it a lot easier/more practical for people to act as they normally would as consumers then I would be fine with that.
Posted on 1/10/14 at 2:32 pm to Rohan2Reed
quote:
Pointing out that health care is not like consumer electronics is just too abstract a point
Posted on 1/10/14 at 3:26 pm to Powerman
quote:Sort of. The mistake patients make is believing that they are the customer when it comes to receiving healthcare. They are not. The insurance company is the doctor's customer.
So you agree that the insurance system absent of government is still not really a free market system?
A market does exist between insurance companies and providers. But it's a much smaller (fewer actors) and thus less competitive market, lacking downward price drivers, than would exist if patients were paying their own bills.
Posted on 1/10/14 at 3:31 pm to Draconian Sanctions
quote:Worse, since they have no intention of ever paying, they have no motivation to negotiate prices, or consider the value of any particular treatment. If a procedure costs $300,000 and extends your life a week, why not? You aren't paying.
People with health problems are in no position to act like consumers the way they would for a car or a tv so consumers are gouged as a result.
As far as price gouging... What do you base they belief on?
Posted on 1/10/14 at 6:09 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
A market does exist between insurance companies and providers. But it's a much smaller (fewer actors) and thus less competitive market, lacking downward price drivers, than would exist if patients were paying their own bills.
If that is true then why:
1) Is United Healthcare's cashflow margin less than 5%
2) Is HCA's cashflow margin less than 5%
I just can't get into the "greed" argument when the margins are low and the executives in healthcare aren't making nearly as much as those in banking, technology, or other industries.
NOW that being said if patients were paying their own bills and could comparison shop there would be downward cost drivers......
Posted on 1/10/14 at 9:53 pm to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
I don't like Obamacare for a lot of reasons but I will answer your question anyway.
The main reason health care costs are so out of control in this country compared to others is because in other countries there is a clearinghouse of sorts that will collectively bargain for prices on heath care products. People with health problems are in no position to act like consumers the way they would for a car or a tv so consumers are gouged as a result.
If there were a private, yelp type organization that would bring everything together and either collectively bargain for services or make it a lot easier/more practical for people to act as they normally would as consumers then I would be fine with that.
Pretty much this.
I don't like Obamacare either, but I also don't think there's a free market solution to high healthcare costs. At least I haven't seen one yet.
Posted on 1/11/14 at 12:08 am to DCRebel
Give the Republicans 3 or 4 more years. They are still working on an answer.
Posted on 1/11/14 at 12:11 am to Roaad
I've been in healthcare for 20 years.
It's expensive because the primary payor source is a government entity: Medicare.
Because of this, market forces are not to be found.
It's expensive because the primary payor source is a government entity: Medicare.
Because of this, market forces are not to be found.
Posted on 1/11/14 at 12:14 am to Scoop
Scoop - how much would you say is paid by the Government.
How much by insurance? and include the OOP.
How much by patients w/o insurance
How much by insurance? and include the OOP.
How much by patients w/o insurance
Posted on 1/11/14 at 12:23 am to matthew25
quote:I believe Medicare and Medicaid combined are around 50% of healthcare spending.
Scoop - how much would you say is paid by the Government.
Posted on 1/11/14 at 12:28 am to matthew25
Medical services are accessed at a large rate by the elderly and disabled. They have a government payor source.
This is why everything in the medical universe is so expensive.
If you don't understand this, I don't know what to tell you.
Do you think 20 minutes in a CAT scan machine being overseen by a person making $15/hour really costs $2000?
This is why everything in the medical universe is so expensive.
If you don't understand this, I don't know what to tell you.
Do you think 20 minutes in a CAT scan machine being overseen by a person making $15/hour really costs $2000?
Posted on 1/11/14 at 2:17 am to Scoop
Look at LASIK surgery. You have you pay out of pocket. Technology has improved and prices have gone down. That's how the free market should work in medicine. There is a surgery center in Oklahoma that lists their prices online, people will actually fly I'm because prices are so much cheaper. How can you control prices when you're separated from the true cost by insurance plans?
Posted on 1/11/14 at 3:23 am to Scoop
quote:if you're paying $2000 for a ct scan, someone is ripping you off
Do you think 20 minutes in a CAT scan machine being overseen by a person making $15/hour really costs $2000?
Posted on 1/11/14 at 4:04 am to Roaad
quote:Yes
Supporters of Obamacare: Are there no free market solutions to Healthcare?
Is greater government control the only answer here?
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