re: Small caliber deer rifle recommendations?

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Buck_Rogers

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Buck,
Welcome to the OB. Initially I was not going to bother responding after reading the rest of your posts, but I decided to anyway for the benefit of those who need a counterpoint to your recs.

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A reduced load? That would defeat the entire purpose of your statement that “there are a lot of bullet traits that factor into it's lethality …”

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Wrong. As I said, my son killed 10 deer using a reduced load. Many other hunters have found reduced loads of high power rounds to be very lethal. The quote of mine you cited above is partial. The entire quote said, "There are a lot of bullet traits that factor into it's lethality, of which sectional density is only one (albeit small)." I don't know of an experienced hunter who would disagree w/ that statement.

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For instance, let’s look at some more traits of a reduced load in a 308 compared to a standard 243 load. From Hodgdon's load data, a reduced load for the 308 is a 135 grain bullet being driven at 2,490 fps which gives a muzzle energy of 1,860 ft-lbs.... Now, take a standard loaded 243 round with a 100 grain bullet being driven at 2,950 fps, which gives a muzzle energy of 1,950 ft-lbs.

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My recs are a result of extensive hunting experience as opposed to looking at a chart. When I first started hunting I could tell you the muzzle energies for all the major deer hunting calibers. I quit analyzing muzzle velocity many years ago. My deer hunting gun will have an appropriate bore size and use a properly constructed bullet loaded to the appropriate muzzle velocity. Muzzle velocity, sectional density, ballistic coefficient, momentum, lethality index or whatever set of #'s you want to look at do not kill deer; deer are killed by a proper working bullet placed in the vital zones. Through the years, I've killed a large number of deer w/ 10 different handgun calibers and 14 different types of bullets. I'm confident at what I know will work. One of my favorite hunting writers is a handgun hunter who lives in W. Virginia. He's killed over 500 deer lifetime; some years he's killed over 50 deer. His articles include a write up of each kill and bullet performance. I don't recall him ever using or recommending a 22 centerfire.

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Let's look at some other differences between your "reduced load" and a 243 standard load.
1. This guy might not reload, so being able to easily obtain ammunition that can be practiced with is of the utmost importance. If you can't hit it, you can't kill it.

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I agree that practice is important. OTOH, one doesn't have to handload in order to use reduced loads as the factories make very good reduced loads that can be bought at your local store or ordered from the 'net. Hunters have been practicing w/ factory ammo for years.

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2. The sectional density of a 100 grain 243 is around .242. A 308 in 135 grain is about a .20.

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So what?? Sectional density is only a rough indication of how deep a bullet might penetrate. I already know a 125 gr 308 Nosler Balllistic Tip at 2400-2650 fps penetrates plenty deep to kill a deer. Your 6mm bullet w/ a superior SD still leaves only a 6mm entrance/exit hole. Anyone who's tracked many deer prefers a larger hole over a smaller hole; if one hunts long enough, he'll eventually need a nice blood trail. I expect my deer hunting bullet to penetrate deeply, leaving both an entrance and exit hole that produces an adequate blood trail.

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As far as I can tell, a reduced load 308 has no advantage over a standard 243 load. It has less velocity, less sectional density and less energy.

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You're wrong, but you don't realize it because you've never hunted w/ reduced loads. Again, deer are not killed by #'s and equations.

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I don’t think a deer will notice a difference of 0.06” in the diameter of the bullet when there is roughly an 8” diameter kill zone on it.

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A deer's kill zone doesn't factor into the question. The question is bullet performance. Smaller diameter deer guns are much more dependent on good bullet performance than are larger diameter deer guns. Smaller diameter guns are more prone to a bullet failure. Are you really trying to tell us you think a deer won't "notice a difference" between a 0.243" vs 0.308" bullet in all circumstances? Do you really think that on a severely angled shot, that 243 caliber bullet will penetrate as deeply and leave as big a hole as a 308 bullet? Do you really think that 243 bullet will reliably break the shoulders of a large deer at close range as well as a 308 bullet will?

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About the 223 as a deer round. Personally, I was skeptical at first, but I learned the error in my ways. I went on a deer hunt one time with my nephew... He dropped an 8 point buck in its tracks at 100 yards with a lung shot. The next day he dropped a doe 80 yards out in it's tracks. Since then 2 other kids used that rifle and successfully dropped every deer they fired at with the same 70 grain Barnes TSX bullets. Every deer shot had an exit wound and did not take more than a step after being shot. Why? Because they could shoot plenty of cheap 223's for practice and save the good stuff for the deer.... Seeing what this 223 did to deer made a believer out of me, and it is all I use on my deer hunts now.

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I'm glad you and everyone else you know who uses a 223 for deer hunting has been pleased, but a 22 caliber is not in the consideration for me or my buddies. Most folks I've read of who advocate 22 centerfires for deer hunting hunt under more controlled situations (broadside/neck shots only, open country, safari hunting, large box stands w/ good rests, etc.) than we do. Our hunts vary from deep woods w/ very limited visibility to wide power lines; shots are frequently quick; angles are sometimes bad so that a deep penetrating bullet is needed; some stands, especially climbing stands, have limited rests). Unless you're very disciplined w/ your shots, as long as you continue to use just a 223 (think of a large bodied deer in thick woods, at dark, at close range, angling to you so that you have to break the onside shoulder go through the lungs, possibly go through the liver and through the stomach to exit), I expect you'll eventually lose a deer.

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The 223 outshines every other deer caliber in one aspect which cannot be denied. It is the cheapest round suitable for deer to practice with.

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We agree that adequate practice is very important and that 223 ammo is cheap. OTOH, as I've explained, I don't think the 223 is adequate for deer hunting. I don't expect to convince you otherwise, but I hope those who're considering the 223 will reconsider.

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Anyone who doubts the 223 for deer hunting should get away from the computer sometime and actually go outside and try it for themselves.

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I'll pass on that one. My hunting time is too precious to spend it experimenting w/ a 22 centerfire. As I explained, the 223 Rem is not an adequate tool for the type of deer hunting I do. No one I personally know currently uses a 223 for deer hunting, although some have tried it and were disappointed.