re: Oklahoma State: Fans seem to think they're getting Leach..

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however you want to label it, it's a spread option play proliferated by the RR system

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You are so clueless it's sad. The Zone running play was not created by Rich Rodriquez nor was it created around the time the Spread Option running game came into popularity, but if you want to go on thinking that knock yourself out.

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and with so many teams running zone/zone-read plays, the "read" is essentially nothing

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Wow, people really will say anything to try to defend themselves.

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Texas 2007-2009 did, and OU has for a while. OU did win a title with a spread passing game

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Texas has never run the Air Raid. Oklahoma ran the Air Raid from 1999-2001. Oklahoma under Kevin Wilson has used a lot of Air Raid passing concepts because Wilson became close friends with Mumme & Leach and incorporated them into his offensive package. Wilson was also influenced through Air Raid coaches to go to the Fast Tempo offense as well.

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but they didn't win with their offense

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You're right Oklahoma averaging 37 points per game and Josh Heupel throwing for 3,600 yards and 26 TD's had nothing to do with them winning a championship that year.

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why haven't UT or OU won a title using the offense?

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OU did in 2000. Texas ran a wide open, spread offense with a great athlete that could throw & run and they won a championship. Oklahoma has also won 7 Conference Championships in 11 yrs under Stoops with a wide open offense.

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You're new here aren't you

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Nope been on here since the website was created. But I catch your drift about SlowFlow

Your an expert

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Just to chime in a bit... No two offensive coaches are going to run an offense exactly the same way. Each coach uses his team's abilities to fit into his offensive philosophy (good coaches at least... hope you're listening Gary Crowton). For example, Leach's Air Raid offense at Texas Tech, with Holgorson as his "coordinator," threw the ball much more than Holgorson's Air Raid offense at Ok. St. this year, because his personnel was better suited to throw the ball 50 times a game. Holgorson collaborated with Mike Gundy and adjusted his style with an offense that would suit their team, implementing more of a running attack knowing that they had the talent to do so.

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Yes, and people are forgetting that calling an offense an air raid doesn't mean it sticks to passing 80% of the time. You implement other offenses too. It's not like you pick one offense and stick to it, unless you're you know who. Things change and evolve during the season after you see what works and coaches use many offenses with one main foundation.

The Air Raid is nothing more than the way this offense has been packaged. Most of these air raid concepts have been run for years by many coaches. This notion that these air raid coaches "invented this stuff" or think outside the box is ridiculous. They are good coaches,I think Holgerson is one of the best around right now, but inventors of something new, not even close. Sid Gillman, Bill Walsh, Don Coryell, those were trend setters. The shallow concept has been around for years (ever heard of the drive concept; very similar). I'm not knocking the Air Raid, it is packaged well. I just think that some younger coaches need to learn where all these concepts really came from. I promise you Hal Mumme didn't invent them. Now a good coach has to understand what he is doing, so obviously Mumme, Leach, Holgerson, etc are very good coaches, but not inventors. These guys also put there own spin on their offense, Holgerson has adapted and change a bit since he left Leach. Any offense can be run how you want as long as it is sound. I just laugh at the notion that these guys are trend setters or inventors. There is hardly anything new in football, it all comes and goes. Once again all of these guys are really good football coaches, but so are coaches that use other "systems" What I'm trying to say is that not every spread team that throws the football the majority of the time is an "Air Raid team. There are teams that spread and throw and don't use the air raid terminolgy. It just seams like a lot of the coaches that post on this board lump all spread throwing teams into the air raid category. Some people use different terminolgy. You could throw a certain route off the tree system and another team could throw the exact same route and use a concept system to call it. The Air Raid System is mostly, yes I said mostly not completely a terminolgy deal.It is not a new invented offense.

Good one

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The Air Raid is nothing more than the way this offense has been packaged. Most of these air raid concepts have been run for years by many coaches. This notion that these air raid coaches "invented this stuff" or think outside the box is ridiculous. They are good coaches,I think Holgerson is one of the best around right now, but inventors of something new, not even close. Sid Gillman, Bill Walsh, Don Coryell, those were trend setters. The shallow concept has been around for years (ever heard of the drive concept; very similar). I'm not knocking the Air Raid, it is packaged well. I just think that some younger coaches need to learn where all these concepts really came from. I promise you Hal Mumme didn't invent them. Now a good coach has to understand what he is doing, so obviously Mumme, Leach, Holgerson, etc are very good coaches, but not inventors. These guys also put there own spin on their offense, Holgerson has adapted and change a bit since he left Leach. Any offense can be run how you want as long as it is sound. I just laugh at the notion that these guys are trend setters or inventors. There is hardly anything new in football, it all comes and goes. Once again all of these guys are really good football coaches, but so are coaches that use other "systems" What I'm trying to say is that not every spread team that throws the football the majority of the time is an "Air Raid team. There are teams that spread and throw and don't use the air raid terminolgy. It just seams like a lot of the coaches that post on this board lump all spread throwing teams into the air raid category. Some people use different terminolgy. You could throw a certain route off the tree system and another team could throw the exact same route and use a concept system to call it. The Air Raid System is mostly, yes I said mostly not completely a terminolgy deal.It is not a new invented offense.

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Great points tcoachmc and I agree with you on all points accept that there are some coaches like Holgerson, Leach & Mumme that are outside of the box thinkers. Did they invent the air raid? Nope all those concepts Mumme got from BYU back in the mid 1980's. In my opinion, the one thing that sets Air Raid guys like the above mentioned apart from many other offensive coaches is they have the balls and confidence to do what most offensive coaches won't. Are they inventors? Nope, but they are as you said, very bright & smart and are great teachers of the game and focus in on the little things of what they do, which is what makes them so good at what they do on offense. As you said, the same can be said for many other coaches as well. I appreciate educated responses like yours.